I wasn't sure about making this version public, as it's a small update between larger ones, but I received a very heartfelt message from a fan who was apparently really looking forward to this one. Thanks to her, everybody gets the update now. ^-^ Just be aware that this one is a "rest" update to spend time with your party and see consequences of your actions during the war.
Links updated to 0.36.3:
Download*: https://mega.nz/#!TxkVQRhJ!C4Imq2hodbIzyIak6epnzLjLIudw_ZJbShwwg1wDpO0
Mirror*: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2qut7duhm4xzga8/TLS_0.36.3.exe/file
RTP: https://mega.nz/#!u1knybqS!_oXKsV-4JFnOnnMXJwHZzd83MNSHIHPNJHd0FSFYiXQ
*Requires RPG Maker VX Ace RTP to be installed. If you don't know what that means, use the RTP link.
TLS 0.36.2
- More bugfixing and refinements.
- Graphical fixes thanks to Decanter.
TLS 0.36.3
- Altina fixer event added. Unless you have a previous save with Altina missing, this is not a critical update for you.
- Various minor fixes.
- New Sabitha eyes thanks to Decanter.
The next release will be the big Stenai update, which I am very eager to bring everyone. It will be larger than a normal update, but I'm doing my best to launch straight into it and hopefully I'll be able to finish it in good time.
In other news, my games are on sale starting today. Do check them out on Steam and itch.io. Notably, on Steam I'm reducing Ouroboros to its lowest price to date, so this would be a good time to give it a try if you have been waiting.
Does this update has all bugs fixed?
ReplyDeleteI have tried to fix all reported bugs, but obviously I cannot promise perfection.
DeleteWe need more drama especially with Robin.
ReplyDeleteDespite her being my favorite i want her to have her own life.
The father-daughter relationship just doesn't do it for me.
I fell like Yarra fantasizing!
Ship Robin and Tyna lovingly together, Tyna is pregnant, watch the drama with Simon and Alonon.
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ReplyDeleteBug? I can't choose Altina in formation. She isn't in the list.
ReplyDeleteBased on other reports, this is likely the result of finishing the previous release in an older version. The bug has been fixed now, but old saves won't be retroactively fixed - if you revert to a save before the very end of the war events, that should fix it. You could also wait until next update.
DeleteNice update!
ReplyDeleteStill "hug" and not sex for Robin
The Human rite for the Ivalan Succubi
Ramasta bar
Only thing when i see it right if we protected Lynines country we can lock her but if we do the same for Orilise still not lockbar?
Oh and the QUm RObin scene NICE!
Yeah, I'm keeping "hug" as a unique trait for the two of them. You're correct, Lynine can be locked after this update, but Orilise cannot be.
DeleteAnyway, glad you enjoyed the update. ^-^
Thx and will we get Sarai´s chibi next for Stenai? Also that Yarra chibi looks adorable.
DeleteFor the program icon? That one will stay Yarra - she's the most emblematic and she's recognizable in small form. You can expect a lot more Sarai in a few updates, though!
DeleteOk now I´m excitated.
DeleteJust a minor nitpick: the title still says 0.36.2 public release.
ReplyDeleteI don't generally update post titles. Even if I did, it won't update the URL, leading to inconsistency.
DeleteI was unaware of that, sorry.
DeleteI just started to play this game and admire many aspects of it - from game mechanics like 2 currencies and non respawnable enemies (it removes tedious grinding of trash mobs and at the same time helps to keep economy balanced) to complex world building.
ReplyDeleteGame is great and i enjoy it a lot or would so if not for one serious gripe. And that is treatment of Altina. I dont mind cruelty of her fate - it cant be helped and i hate it like all cruelty, but it serves narrative purpose. My main complaint has 2 points:
1)Party reaction to her rescue is terrible, not even cold hearted but straight out heartless. Imagine the scene: party arrives and sees young elven girl mindbroken by brutal orcish rape going for who knows how long. Only extremely cruel person would not pity her and yet theres no emphaty whatsoever from any of party members, quite the opposite, they ridicule/resent her in situation like this!Simon even explains whats going on in case theres any doubt. Below full relevant reactions list so you can see and judge for yourself:
Yarra (amused face): Wow, they have fucked all her brains out except the one that talks.
Hilstara: Why are we here for her again?
Yarra (af):Looks like it suites her well enough for me.
Aka: Lets just put her out of her misery before she annoys us all to death
Yarra: [...] Just fuck some usefulness into her
Trin: Break her mind with the cock as soon as possible
The rest is typical debating which decision will make her more useful, which, given the situation, is also out of place.
My points is that its not only terrible but also incompatible with your companions personalities; outside of Trin and, to lesser extent, Yarra, none of them is so cruel and uncaring. Up to the point its the most resentful party reacion in the scene that calls for most emphatetic one. Even Varia who can can get out untouched and is confirmed to be brutal murderer and rapist receives more symphatetic reactions.
Miniscule rewriting with addition of some "poor girl" comment could improve this scene a lot! As a side note Yarra has another extremely cruel comment in the same area telling Simon to rape orc slaves to death (!!).
2) Her treatment later, most notably and fixably her title. Again i hate her personality in good route but that cant be helped - it serves as fetish for people who like it and isnt illogical given her story. But theres no reason to give her equally derogative title (mindbroken slut/personal slut and the likes) in both routes. In fact there are good reason not to:
1)Varia has different titles fo her 2 routes so theres a precedent
2)It makes the whole good route feel really bad, not only you cant stop her rape and mindbreak but also end up treating her poorly in that condition.
3)According to wiki Qum already uses 2 froms depending on route: elfy slut or elfy girl, and they are perfect!
4)There are already many sluts including titled ones, and no doubt more coming.
Reassuming i think something like "Elven Slut" (or even "Breeder" for something more unique) for bad route and "Elven Girl" for good route with current prefixes would be more satisfying and adequate for her story and niche.
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That scene botheres me still, sort of spoiling the fun. Please note that i try to show good reasoning for reasonably easy change (at least regarding scene itself). In fact i dont even like Altina as a character. Judge yourself. Is there any hope for such changes?
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I abstain from writing other thoughts since the whole thing is rather lenghty. But just as a note: I really liked Carina first scene, it had some of the more emotionally innvolved writing, and thats the basis for sexy time (at least for some inculding me). As od chap 2 Orcent is the most interesting character (just wonderfull), Ginasta best girl (unyielding justice is the stuff for me) and Carina the nicest person (barring Qum being the nicest succubus).
Written with faint hope of being read.
I try to read all comments, though if they're on old posts I may unintentionally miss them. I don't mind criticism of the game, though I'm afraid my response can't be as lengthy.
Delete1) Rereading this conversation, I see how you could have a negative reaction. I don't think your characterization of the party is quite fair to them - their comments are in response to Altina giving a monologue about sex and denying their help. Had she expressed suffering, they would have responded compassionately. Now, I did intend Yarra to be inconsiderate or even cruel at that stage in the plot for later character development, and Trin is a sociopath. But Aka clarifies that she wants Altina to be cured, and Hilstara wants her to be restored.
Having said that, I was sincere when I said I understand your reaction. I've added and modified a few lines at the start of this scene to make my intent clearer.
2) I didn't intend the title to be mockery of Altina - Yarra and plenty of others self-identify with the label. Having said that, I like the idea of giving Altina two different sets of titles. The kinder route now starts the same, but Altina's titles reflect a progression toward self-respect.
Thank you for giving your more general thoughts at the end as well. I'm glad you like many elements of the game. ^-^
What a nice surprise after terrible day I had! Thank you a lot for such unexpectedely receptive response, I subscribed to your patreon to show my gratitude, with intention to bump the sum later (sadly in middle/eastern Europe where Im from every price is 4 times more costly).
DeleteRegarding "slut" title: I understand that there's nothing wrong with being a slut and being called one in fantasy setting like this, as long as its someone's nature/preference. Altina however became one due to her tragic fate and it doesn't reflect her undistorted personality. As I understand the story so far, in her good route Simon encourages her self determination, since restoration was not an option - only recreation according to his memory. Even if her sexual desires are going to be the lasting price of that, they do not define who she is as there's much more to her than that. Thus as you noted it didn't reflect her strive for self respect.
I do the best I can to write the story, but I can't think of everything, so I try to be receptive to anyone offering a good criticism. I think these tweaks will make the game better, so thank you!
DeleteIt's just a shame that we'll have to wait until the next update to see those changes implemented. I doubt you're gonna release another patch just for this, after all.
DeleteOh well, I'm a patient man.
this game is awesome!!
ReplyDeletewonderful story, i am definitely patron this one!!
is there any chance you added impregnate system?
also it is possible make some system such as declare war? so it possible to conquer other kingdom and so on?even though it far away from story it might make alternative pure evil path right ?pheww sorry if it sound fool , just wanted share my fantasy xD
and yeah i wish this story doesn't end before simon beat all incubus king and lustlord even the goddess xD
Hello, I'm glad you've enjoyed the game! You will see impregnation play a role in the plot, but it won't be a system. Likewise, you've seen conquering nations and will see more, but letting players choose any nation to attack would make it difficult to continue a coherent story.
DeleteI hope this is an okay place to give comments like this-- I want to start by saving I love this game. It's really thoughtful and interesting and pretty much exactly what I wanted Dragon Age Inquisition to be. I've shared it with a bunch of my friends who all also love it and are amazed at the quality of the writing, art, and how fun it is. The women are people! The sex is really interesting and integral to plot! The worldbuilding is super neat!
ReplyDeleteOne thing: are there any plans to maybe make the Robin route a little more optional? It's a bit of a hard squick for me and a lot of people I know. I'm not saying I want it removed, because hey, I got my own weird kinks, and I get that a lot of people really really dig it and wanted her as an option, but I just would love it if there could be an option to define what kind of relationship it is (A bit like with Altina and Varia), so at least she's not calling Simon father after it starts. That's the only thing that really really wigs me out. If there were just way to decide that, it'd help a lot.
Outside of that, I just want to reiterate I really love this game and look forward to where it's going. It does stuff I wish more mainstream RPGs did. Thank you for making it and continuing to update it!
I have yet to get to those scenes but already dread them and concur with the idea of optionality. Father - daughter relations are very off-putting for me, as well as just nonsensical - why would Simon change unique relation one can have with his child for something he can have with anyone. And no, as is a nature of the world one can't have both. Typical case of libido thinking (expectedly initiated from Robin side).
DeleteThanks, glad you like my work! Thank you very much for telling your friends as well - word of mouth is how a niche game like this can continue. ^-^
DeleteYou are not the only person to request changes to the Robin part of the storyline, so it's something I've given thought. However, it's been a part of the big plan from the beginning, so allowing a choice would add some complications. Not sure if you've caught up to the most recent updates, but if I followed refusing the relationship to its logical conclusion, it would come off as punishing players for making that choice.
I really do regret that it hinders your experience of the game, though. Giving the option to have her stop using "father" afterward is theoretically feasible, though I shudder to think of how long it would take to add conditional branches to so much of her dialogue. I have generally reduced the use of familial terms during scenes out of deference to those squicked out, but I know that's of limited help.
Anyway, I'm happy to hear from you! Please do keep commenting and feel free to say anything, including criticisms.
(Thumos, I don't think I'll be able to change your mind on the subject overall, but I hope the execution does not feel libido-driven to you.)
Ironically I think the problem might have been Sierra Lee's own skill with story telling. For most games, (Especially NSFW ones) if there is a young, shy, attractive, virgin, girl then almost everyone would be angry if the protagonist did anything OTHER then 'stick dick in pretty woman'.
DeleteBut because Sierra put in a legitimately felt 'father-daughter' relationship between the two some people didn't want that to change into a sexual one.
However I'm not criticizing, I think there relationship was written in perfectly. If for example Simon had been the one to initiate a non-platonic relationship, if Robin had pursued for Simon like "Nalili might have", or if they began to fuck after one conversation...any of those would have been creepy, bad, and just plain out of character. But luckily it was not.
Robin's feelings towards Simon were subtly but well-established since chapter 1. My favorite example is during the Ardford Summit. After meeting Tyna Simon says,
"I don't have any romantic interest in her, if anything I see her as a daughter."
To which the next dialogue box has Robin's sad expression with "..."
The relationship was handled well with both of them taking there time, talking to the other as equals over there concerns fears and hopes. I am not trying to say people who dislike the non-platonic relationship between the two are wrong. Incest is called Taboo for a reason so I can not fault anyone for a gut 'no' response.
But for me the deal was sealed when Robin describes she still feels there original father-daughter relationship hasn't changed or been replaced. There is just a new dimension of happiness between them.
That's definitely part of the issue for me. Robin and Simon's relationship was very well written as a father and daughter relationship despite her being adopted. They reminded me a lot of Geralt and Ciri in The Witcher. Again, since father-daughter stuff is a huge turnoff for me, personally, I was kind of hoping it wouldn't go that way, but well, I know this is a sexy game and that's a sexy trope for a lot of people, so I was trying to brace myself for it. But it does still feel like a cold bucket of water every time it comes up.
DeleteI didn't actually think the lead-up to it was too bad. It was definitely foreshadowed and I liked their conversations where they discussed the very real possibility it would happen -- and you know, being ready to change the relationship paradigm. Again, not my favorite, but I thought it was a mature way to go about it. A little like Haydee and the Count in the Count of Monte Cristo: male guardian realizing very belatedly his charge doesn't actually see him as a paternal figure, but is madly in love with him. Squicky, yes, but about the least squicky way to go about it.
My issue comes with the fact that after the relationship starts yeah, that conversation about them still having a father-daughter relationship. That swings it right straight back into the father-daughter incest territory which, again, splash of cold water for me.
As I said, I hate to be prudish about it, it obviously works for you and plenty of people playing the game, but for me even though I can do certain incest dynamics, parent-child is just a huge AUGH for me because of the inherent power dynamic issue there of someone who has THAT much say in your development. Now, I know power dynamics are an issue with all of Simon's relationships in game by the nature of what he is-- this game has been extremely good at addressing that, one of the reasons I really enjoy it. But well. The Robin thing, for me anyway, sort of crosses out of the realm of 'extenuating circumstances of being an Incubus King' and into the realm of 'stuff that can really happen in far worse situations' -- which I think is why me and other people can respond so viscerally to it.
Again, don't want to say it shouldn't be in the game. It WAS well foreshadowed and I get it works for a lot of people. I just wish there were an option for people like me, who find it throws them out of the game a bit, to at least have the dynamic shift SLIGHTLY after she joins the harem so they connect more like equals, and not a father and daughter. (even if I understand that might be a pain to program. Sorry, Sierra!!)
I admit that the whole thing was foreshadowed and I have no doubt it will be written in at least acceptably tasteful (as in "not extremely gross") way. And yes Sierra, I doubt I will change previously stated opinion. I also think that this kind of relation is emotionally hardcore fetish, so I would expect many people to not like it.
DeleteBut enough on the matter from me, luckily it doesn't bother me too much, since I have no attachment to Robin as a character. She's collected and obedient copy of her father, so the whole thing is masturbatory really, Simon fucking Simonette in atmosphere of understanding and respect (then again I have to see the thing to have more informed opinion).
"Unknown" - Your points are valid but im not sure your generalization about people playing games/h-games with hopes of protagonist "sticking it in" in every pretty is true. I for once play many of even the most grindy generic games in pure route. Yes its idiotic but to each his own perversion. Using succubi nomenclature one could say I get off on seeing heroines happy and on oh so sweet cognizance that I saved them. (On a more serious note I think that independent characters and relations between them are much more interesting and arousing)
From positives: I just got Ginasta dialogues after boss fight and she's so wonderfully written, ticks all my boxes in perfect way. Whatever happens with her, for the love of all that you love, please keep her mind like that.
Yes, I've received enough criticism on how the relationship was written that I've come to feel it may have been a mistake, at least from a design perspective. From a story perspective, I don't care about the fetish at all, I just tried to write Simon and Robin. But considering audiences, the people who throw huge amounts of money at incest games have ignored me, and the people who are looking for a broader experience are turned off. Nobody's happy. =/
DeletePower dynamics are something that this game dances around in a lot of ways. I try to address it in a self-aware way, since many people (including me) can't just turn off this consideration. But ultimately some suspension of disbelief is required, I think.
Thumos: Your points are valid but im not sure your generalization about people playing games/h-games with hopes of protagonist "sticking it in" in every pretty is true.
I'm afraid that in terms of numbers, my conclusion based on my experience is that he is correct. I have come to accept that in making a game like TLS, I am making an extremely niche product. I'm grateful to everyone who has supported me enough that I can make this a career, but I would not recommend it for anyone trying to pay bills with their work.
Partially as a response to your last paragraphs and partially as a comment overall, I'll say that TLS is definitely a game about making the world a better place and leaving characters happy. Lots of bad things happen, but that's to try to make the resolution feel earned.
I'm sorry to hammer that point so much. I do mostly love the game and all the harem members(Varia's actually one of my favorites-- she's the kind of character you NEVER see as a female character and I ended up invested in her more than I expected to be. I also find Trin really darkly fun for all she's a terrifying sociopath). I appreciate you taking the time to explain your process on it. I just want to say again Robin's the only harem member that I find genuinely difficult. Everything else I think hits exactly that exploration of how Simon balances his power versus a genuine relationships very, very well.
DeleteAlso, I'm happy the game is about making the world a better place. I appreciate for all there's some pretty raw themes, it's got that optimistic streak that I really enjoy. It's really nice to see it approached like this from the eyes of such a jaded protagonist, for a change!
Looking forward to future updates. Thanks again.
"Nobody's Happy" I'm Happy Sierra! I don't think the Robin Relationship was a mistake I think it was a good sub-plot, and gave my second favorite character tons of screen-time.
DeleteYou probably have already considered this but I think this is just one of the things you can not control. What some people love others hate.
Ah, I may have come off as unnecessarily gloomy there. I was just trying to say that I recognize this as a point of conflict that might well have gone differently, if I had been able to plan TLS with all the perspective I have today.
DeleteI'm glad you like Varia! She's not the most popular character (out of combat), but there's a special place in my heart for her and she has a role to play yet.
Right now I feel that retroactively changing the Robin content would delay development too much, but I will again seriously consider giving the player some choice in this regard. Perhaps I could set up future content with this in mind and at a later date include past sections as well. While I need to keep the project moving forward, I do try to improve the game as a whole.
Unknown: I'm happy to hear when this part lands for people, of course! I like writing Robin a lot.
Anyway, just want to say again that receiving thoughtful comments makes me happy, even when they're criticism. Nice to hear from everyone, hope to hear from you more in the future. ^-^ I'm curious how people will react to the Stenai update!
Thank you for taking it into consideration for the future. Honestly, even if she just wasn't calling Simon 'Father' during their love scenes, it'd go a long way to help the "AUUUGH" reaction.
DeleteAnd hooray for more Varia! I love this damaged bandit queen. Not sure if it was intended, but her (reshaped) storyline really resonates as an allegory for someone with life long depression pursuing treatment for the first time, and that is a lovely thing to see in a fantasy game.
Looking forward to Stenai!
I think Robin using "Father" even during scenes captures how their relationship has been written so far. I also liked how their decision wasn't one conversation, but a period of contemplation, discussion, and realization. It fit their personalities.
DeleteI'm probably too late for this discussion, but I just want to say that the incestous nature of the relationship fits the game thematically.
DeleteOne of the main themes in TLS for me is the reconsideration of preconceived notions, when Sierra wants to be humorous she does it to the many ridiculous tropes RPG videogames have, when she wants to be more serious she does it to character archetypes, social stigmas and cultural stances. The game also seems to generally consider ethical zealotry as faulty and favors an openminded attitude to new situations as they come.
With all of that in mind, it feels funny to me to think that generally people are okay with the game forcing disagreeable actions such as political assassinations, summary executions and using Trin's magic, but the sexual relationship with Robin is where some people draw the line as being too hard to swallow. This could just be the consequence of our modern culture being desensitized to violence but repressed when it comes to discussing divergent notions of sex.
Personally, I really like how this relationship was handled in the game and at no point I really felt it was there just because Sierra was going through a checklist of fetishes. It might have come out as more controversial than intended, but it being a scandalous notion really fits with the themes of the game.
I wonder if some of the criticism could have been averted if the adoption aspect of the relationship was scrapped and instead Robin just referred to Simon as a mentor/benefactor/caretaker. But I personally would have felt a bit dissapointed if the game decided to be disingenous about what is clearly a parental relationship while still being willing to speak about so many other controversial subjects.
In a thread this long, it'd be easy to miss responses, but I try to read all of them! I'm glad that some of these aspects of the game work for you, of course.
DeleteI think it's worth noting that I've never had a single person come to me and say that the parent/child relations in succubus culture bother them. I hope that this means I've done a good job establishing the succubi as non-human, so people are willing to accept substantial differences.
With Robin, however, it's a human relationship players have had time to see in some detail, and one that potentially echoes real world issues to a greater degree. I can understand why people react negatively to it.
I'm too late to respond to this thread. But I agree with some other people here. For me Simon - Robin incest relationship should be make optional.
DeleteIf the hero is a type of dick head character like in the intro, I don't have any problem. But Simon is a rational person who use his brain more than his dick. So I think that Simon - Robin relationship can be avoided.
DeleteBut I understand that there are people who like that kind of kink, so I hope that Sierra can make them optional; So everyone can be happy with it.
I think its just something people have to accept, its a big game and you won't like everything that happens. And while 'just make it optional' might sound like a good solution it only leads to more problems.
DeletePeople don't like incest relationships, makes Robin optional.
People don't like Furries, make Uyae optional.
People don't like non-romantic relationships, make trin optional.
People dont like long slow romance stories, make fucking Janine after one conversation an option.
People don't like non-virgins, like half the cast becomes optional.
People don't like more open relationships, make the gathering and a handful of other scenes optional.
People don't like homosexual characters, make Grubak and Mestan optional.
People don't like any deception of rape, make another dozen scenes optional and remove what makes the other IK's real villains.
It's a slippery slope, and if Sierra wants to make changes to the game thats fine. But its a 50 hour game with a hundred unique characters, you can't expect someone to change the game for every detail you don't like.
When's the next research gonna be available? after the Stenai Arc or is it gonna be after the whole Fucklord arc? personally, this "taking a breather before going to Stenai" update seemed like a good point to advance Riala's research...
ReplyDeleteAfter the Stenai arc. While the characters have time for activities like research and investing right now, not enough time has passed in-world for them to have finished a major project. Trying to space them out logically over the rest of the game, sorry!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen we go into the prison and get out of it something the courtyard ground changes for a second or two mine is the clean green.Just wanted to tell so it does not cause any problem later in the game.
ReplyDeleteAh, I believe I see how that could happen. Will fix, thanks.
DeleteEdit: I spent 4 hours on writing this and double checking relevant portions of the game. Please read :(
ReplyDeleteA) Too long and formal but nevertheless needed preface
I would like to share some remarks covering general small-scale storytelling up till the end of first visit in elven lands in chapter III. They are solely critical to reduce the volume and mostly related to game consistency and good (in moral sense) playthrough.
My general view is that if you write characters into bad situations and ruthless actions so be it, but those should be consistent with the rest of your creation and shouldn't be skimmed over as that creates feeling of inadequacy. Seeing how there's visible effort to adhere to such rules my guess is that you generally approve of them.
I think that its easy to miss some things due to general, necessary and unavoidable distortion of common sense when dealing with medium. I hope something catches your attention and so my exceptionally high sensibility and low reading comprehension can be of use.
B) Remarks
1) In first Lynine scene in Lynine route there's a single line describing how Simon uses his power to bind her to him so she wouldn't be so sexually sensitive to anyone else; he does so without consent. Now she does ask him to accept her as a love slave (obviously without deeper understanding but still) and there's far fetched reasoning of protecting her, so that isn't too terrible. However in later Lynine/Orilise dialog when they decide whether to join him or not, he assures them that he didn't influence them in any way, be it positive or negative one. That means he either lies about the issue making both situations nefarious and inconsistent with his character or that line should be modified/removed. Later Lynine/Hilstara scene and Simon telling Trin to leave the elf alone also suggest that she didn't have her sensibility reduced.
2) Minor: During same section of the game as above Yarra mentions that she has thing for elves and acts accordingly ogling them (I think that its very nice little touch). However she has no interaction of the type with Altina who is already present in the group.
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3) Creating copies with Trin power turns out to be seriously messed up thing resulting in killing innocent people for some influence and economic gains. As such its serious moral decision and yet there's no information available to suggest that. I was very suspicious about the thing and frustrated about the lack of information but decided that detaining someone for limited period of time can be justified; only to find out later they get killed and disposed of in rather fucked up way. I think that:
3.1 Most important. From gameplay perspective player should be offered at least some insight into the process prior to making decisions and its only natural Simon would ask about it.
3.2 When Trin first informs Simon that process killed copied people via decay and they will be disposed he doesn't even react even though it affects many people. Later on he has some rather carefree remark on single bank clerk how he became sacrifice for the cause (even thou its not even true as he dies for minor economic gains). I guess that fixing issue 3.1 would partially fix this one too as Simon and thus player would know what they signed up for.
3.3 It would be preferable to be able to avoid using early copies of innocent for good playthrough in tradeoff for some loses. Im not sure whether its the case or not - there's one guy at the bank who deserves to die and one cooperative girl, im not sure if its enough to pass the mission.
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4) During orgasmic empire route Simon gets to chose the name of his new skill: support allies/support servants/support slaves. The whole thing might seem minor but its one of the more important throughout game.
4.1 First part of skill description isn't modified regardless of choice. Its always something along the lines of "Master calls to his power to support slaves/servants/allies". The thing is, being a master relates to completely different power dynamic and bonds than being an ally and while not negative by itself is suitable only for slaves and servants or other irrelevant situations (like quite positive master-student). Being an ally in this situation emphasizes equality (which doesn't mean equal power) and Simon speaks about that many times in same section of the game. Being a master emphasizes having control over someone. Thus I think it would be suitable to replace "master" for allies version with something suitable (like Leader/Simon etc.)
4.2 The whole choosing thing is inconsistent with Simon stance. He is very clear and decisive about his attitude toward others and that is one of an equal. Argument from inheriting skill traditional name is irrelevant since he gets to chose the name himself. The only reasonable explanation outside of pandering to slave fetish (im all for variety but this is one of the most important recurring game topics) is that he tries to play the Empress by choosing name that pleases her. However she states that she doesn't care and seeing how important the matter is for him that would be serious opportunism.
5)Major. Before concluding elven lands adventure Simon can get second Min/Megail scene outside of Lynie (or, I assume, Orilise) house; scene which made seriously disturbing impression on me. I think that its easy to miss some things due to general, necessary and unavoidable distortion of common sense when dealing with medium. I assume these events were designed for some cuteness factor and showing Megail caring face despite her best efforts to hide it, thus making her more likeable. Yet in my eyes it made her look like a deeply sick person.
DeletePlease bear with me and imagine the situation: Influential lord and his mistress find orphaned little girl (according to wiki 16, but she's clearly a kid with childish looks, behavior, and close to no agency). Lord decides to take her with him so he can fuck her with mistress consent. The end. Classic story of disgusting children abuse and abuse of power, probably including even more disgusting "but I saved her from poverty" reasoning.
Now look at the situation in game. Yep, sadly that's the story Megail was willing to participate in, going even as far as calculating economic gains from it; it just so happens that Simon wasn't interested. Its so deeply wrong that im not sure what else I could write on the topic. Later scene in a castle where Megail encourages Min to seduce people with innocence, so they can imagine violating her, is also potentially creepy as hell, but I can somewhat imagine it in a way that, I assume, it was meant to be seen (teaching trade tricks). However with previous scene its impossible, both context and Megails stance are clear. Changing her answer or modifying it to something accommodating for Min situation (kid, no agency), could remedy this.
I leave it at that for your consideration. Please don't treat it as attempt at moral policing, as that is rather pointless and was not my intention. I simply believe this scene plays out, or at least can play out, in contrary to your intentions. In contrast all scenes involving little succubi from orgasmic empire were successfully humoristic due to cultural differences.
Some things got cut out and messed up, when i had to partition text due to its length. Most notably continuation of argument 4.2: At that point Simon had no reason to pander to Empress anymore and he could change name afterwards anyway.
DeleteNot sure about most of that, but in regards to the things with Trin I think you're forgetting something. Simon has always had a willingness to sacrifice strangers for his goals, right from the start, as evidenced by his killing the bar owner in Feroholm so he could steal his "product".
DeleteIf you recall, his words afterwards were "I feel nothing" and "it was the correct decision".
Again, I read all comments and try to respond to everything that requires a response. I can't reply in as great of length, but I'll cover everything in order.
Delete1) Hmm, I agree that line is inconsistent. Changed.
2) I'll at least consider adding an interaction between them.
3.1) I intended to give the player basic information regarding how Trin's power functions when you see it work directly and then get reports after the coup attempt. I am generally okay with the player not having full information about unintended consequences, as I intended this whole aspect to be somewhat uncomfortable.
3.2) This game has a large amount of text scattered over hundreds of maps and thousands of events. Regardless of intent, it is difficult to track down lines described only vaguely.
3.3) I am unclear about exactly which copies you are objecting to in this case.
4.1) Agreed, might as well change the description more.
4.2) Perhaps it would be worthwhile to point out that Simon isn't yelling out the name of the attack every time he uses it. The name exists primarily for the sake of the player, as does the naming. Finally, after Simon has spent so much time working against slavery, I wanted him and players to have to confront how succubus culture uses the word so broadly.
5) While I think I understand your reaction, I don't agree. Megail does not say "Let's take Min home and bang her." The conversation prior establishes that Min is joining them in a platonic role. Afterward, Megail wants to be clear with Simon, she is not inviting the beginning of a sexual relationship. I don't feel it would be consistent for Megail to assume that "interest" meant that Simon would abuse a minor under his control. I do feel that she would ask a question like that immediately, as part of her being protective while not acting like it.
I also don't agree with your reading of the later conversation, but as you said that one may be somewhat secondary.
Sierra. Thank you for your consideration!
Delete5) I feel like you made a good point, especially this: "I don't feel it would be consistent for Megail to assume that "interest" meant that Simon would abuse a minor under his control". Im partially convinced, but still feel that, when dealing with matters such as these, its good to be as clear as possible. Given Megail control over situation, I got impression, that she is deciding such things by herself, because she never relates to Min own will, only to the fact that she wants her to be happy.
Im not sure whether the rest of our disagreement stems from different views of sexual relation between 55 old and a kid (I think its both sick in psychological sense and deeply wrong from moral point of view) or you don't consider "interest" as something sexual. I hope for the latter but first makes much more sense, as there is later talk about harem.
3) Just to clarify
Things I was writing about in 3.3 take place in Aka's route/Yhilin Preparation mission/Neutralize House Jade subpoint. Im pretty sure that's the only point in the game where you have to kill some completely innocent people by your own hands and it hardly gets a mention.
Limiting information available to player, in order to surprise him later, is obviously common storytelling technique. I simply think that it doesn't work well, when information is limited in artificial way - and it was only natural and in line with Simon character, to ask about the process, prior to making decisions. As far as I know prior information is focused solely on effective maintaining of copies (for example how they weaken when main body dies).
4.2) I always imagined Qum shouting "Masturbate+" in Simon's voice, while charging enemy lines with abundance of terrifying sexual accessories in hands. How else can you sow fear in enemy hearts in epic fashion.
Stephen. I'm glad that you brought that up!
DeleteIt's very interesting point of the game, one of the few where Simon shows something resembling emotions. I think that elements of the game are like markings or blueprints allowing construction of context by the use of imagination. Its fascinating process resembling both criminal investigation for clues and grand scale architecture!
Disclaimer: just my interpretation
During first visit in a bar Simon directly calls the owner something along the lines of "parasite feeding on suffering of others while many have nothing to eat". Those are very strong words from someone as reserved as him. When he returns to the town before Yhilin battle he also speaks how killing bar owner was "solution to a problem and not THE problem", the problem being pathology and apathy spreading in local, extremely poor population. In short it's clear that was far from solely opportunistic robbery murder. In fact it felt suprisingly personal, as a long dormant reflection bearing it's fruit. The scene of murder itself contributes to that feeling; if I remember right, bar owner closes on Simon (one can imagine - with knife in his hand) and gets cut down by him. At the same time in a sense Simon does embark on a new path and remarks mentioned by you are like ripples from self-reflection on his new condition.
I do agree however, that Simon has certain degree of ruthlessness, one that I see as coming from lack of moral conviction (his skepticism is too deep) combined with limited empathy and new unknown position of great power overwhelming someone who was always quite average and powerless. He doesn't turn into a monster, but he wants to finally influence world no matter the cost and that drives him to act almost as one.
Sacrifice strangers? Forget that, during Yhilin battle he can't even make himself to stop sacrifice of Carina, who means a lot to him. It's another fascinating moment, one where he finds himself in familiar scene of "better people than him dying"; he starts to speak, speak a lot,his reasoning so sound and powerless; yet he does nothing again, because he's still in part the old Simon and in part a new ruthless one, with grandiose plans that are at risk. All he can do is avert his face for a moment (clue - character turning around).
In short I have little sympathy for the guy and hope I can kill him at the end. And Janine too.
Given time I would LOVE to write more about characters, but I'm not sure how welcome is that. Im sorry that my enthusiasm is spilling again, please don't hold it against me. It's newcomer zeal. I'm also used to pages long argument from historic games moddign scene. And what are minor uniform details compared with the depths of fictional character soul.
In the Battle of Yhilin if you're talking about when the healers are discovered in the clearing by enemy forces, the decision isn't to save the healers or abandon them, it's whether to send in forces to secure the clearing and the wounded orcs or just to secure the healers and leave the wounded orcs.
Delete5) I can see that take. My reading does rely on the assumption that Megail respects Min's agency and is just trying to be clear on Simon's intentions. In any case, my primary goal with the conversation was to communicate to players that Min is not a viable option.
Delete4.2) ^-^
I tried to write Simon as someone with too tight a grip on his emotions, but who lets them show at key moments. How well this works will vary depending on the reader, of course.
It's up to you how much you want to write, but I certainly wouldn't hold it against you. Quite the opposite! One of the greatest gifts a writer can receive is for people to care about their work. It's nice when people give compliments, but people who talk about the characters in depth are paying a stronger compliment.
Nomixam.
DeleteI was referring to the scene where Carina tries to purify seed of corruption. It seems that basic interpretation of this event, one that is shared by in game characters including Carian herself, is that she was deaf to reason and Simon saved her. I presented reverse reading from different point of view, one that I prefer and that emphasizes how Simon sacrificed her by ultimately allowing purification despite knowing the risk. I think that both interpretations are justified in a sense and together make events interesting in their complexity.
In regard to sacrificing orcs, I don't view that as problematic; that may change however, as they grow more conscious and we get to know more about their quite tragic condition. It's another interesting element of world building, in fact one of my favourites, because it rejects both simple tropes: that of mindless brutes good only for slaughter and another one of noble warriors falling victims to stereotypes. I like struggle and advanced orcs struggle a lot.
As I progress through the story I'm happy to see introduction of some male characters; the world consisting solely of females (outside of unnamed masses), was getting a bit ridiculous.
I think calling it that Simon sacrificed her is wrong, because Carina made the choice. Simon didn't manipulate or force her to purify the seed of corruption. He tries to convince her otherwise, but he has no way to convince her because of the recent revelations she had about him. Carina with her self-sacrifice probably wouldn't have listened to him even if she hadn't known. If he had absorbed the crystal himself he would have most likely exposed himself to a bunch of the Inquisition's soldiers and on top of that the other Incubus Kings would have shown up. Simon didn't have a lot of choices he could make, besides let Carina make hers.
DeleteYes, I think that's default reading, but as per usual things get much more complicated once you delve in a bit. There are many different perspectives possible, like the one I made use of centered more on emotional value of events in light of characters past or some other related to intertwined problems of moral philosophy. An example for the second type would be a problem of strong utilitarianism bias (or preference if you will) present in your reasoning. If you are interested in such things you might find it worth your time to read entry on consequentialism (or utilitarianism for more historic background)from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I didn't read these, but they are usually approachable, albeit inevitably academic.
Delete______________________________________________
consequentialism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
utilitarianism : https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/utilitarianism-history/
Sierra. You might find them interesting as well, since the ideas presented closely relate to Simons stance.
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All of this may seem and may be pretentious (partially due to my rather unfortunate style of writing), unrelated and forced in a way. But there is also straight reasoning that Simon could sacrifice either his plans or Carina (he could stop her by force or by agreeing to do the deed himself) and he chose the grand picture. Was it a right decision? Possibly, but that doesn't change a fact he made a choice by omission of act (as a side note the difference between what feels right to do and what is morally right is another classic problem discussed in moral philosophy with constant reference point in Kant's stance on deception).
Finally some dose of realism and recognition of Carina right to self determination are very relatable for me, so I largely DO share your point of view. Its just that I like to entertain some alternative ones.
I don't really see Simon as unemotional. He reads to me as just someone who's had his ass kicked by life so hard he's a bit disassocated from it all and it takes a lot to have him bring himself back into the moment. He just seems old, jaded, and EXTREMELY stoic almost to a fault. He definitely has thoughts and opinions, but has taken literally having a shard in him to finally bring back all that repressed anger at the state of the world he's clearly been stamping down all these years. It definitely comes out more in his conversations about faith and well, how he dealt with the Chosens. He's one of my favorite protagonists for that.
DeleteOld and jaded is exactly my number 3 problem with him. Even with all morality and compassion issues aside, which is something that i can't do, he's too old and jaded (physically but more importantly psyche wise) and has very little in common with good part of female characters, their interests and dreams. He can fuck and provide stability, but as realistic as that is, it doesn't make compelling relationship for me.
DeleteThat issue comes to light when combined with much worse one, that is idiotic harem genre, which will contnue to progressivly undermine characters credibility. And i think thats a great shame, as interesting characters are the strong point of Sierra work.
While Simon might not have similar interests to all his lovers, everybody, except Trin, shares the dream of making a better world.
DeleteWhat do you mean by Simon being old and jaded physically?
What personality would you like for Simon to show in contrast to the one he has right now?
-Similarity of interests is nice but hardly needed (e.g. attraction of opposites). What I meant by having something in common is attitude toward them.
DeleteDream of making a better world is commendable but empty one, as opposed to will to act toward solving or alleviating specific issues. In fact it's well represented by many characters having more of a second type of goals; what is omitted however is inevitable clash of values and methods. Still, with suspension of disbelief there is enough of a reason for everyone to cooperate as allies, maybe also to fuck (I mean most people don't need much of a reason for that) but close to none to be each other (Simon/girl n1-30) beloved.
-I meant physical degradation from things like age, physical labour and stress conditions. Simon checks all of them with his past of soldier life. Still, that obviously interfuses with psyche aspects that I put emphasis on.
-None, as plastering features to existing character is pointless. And would you look at that, it seems I was wrong and Simon is already perfect for me!
But seriously: my last paragraph from previous message again, no matter MC personality (for example the opposite of Simon and one more to my liking- enthusiastic, sensitive, naive and engaged, with layers of despair), the issue would still continue.
Also worth noting once again, that I view these things as problematic from character development point of view. My issues with Simon as a person are morality/compassion related, run much deeper and stay at least partially separate.
Simon's powers changed his body to be in his prime and presumably that means without degradation, he only looks like an old man now because he thinks of himself as an old man.
DeleteA side note, in another of your posts you mentioned wanting to kill Janine at the end of the game, why do you dislike her so much?
- Sure, I know.
DeleteDamn, I got lured into another essay. Can't. Resist.
- I don't dislike Janine, she has quite likeable personality yet deserves to die. To understand this view you have to drop the common misconception that what is right and wrong has anything to do with what one likes and dislikes. It may be related and coincide, but ultimately stems from different kind of thinking.
Her crime is humanity old: to bring the scourge of war upon your own nation by the hands of foreign forces, in order to seize control. Sophocles play Antigone, possibly the most famous one in Western culture, narrates this very issue. The play got many adaptations and rewrites focusing on different aspects of situation presented; I was recently acting in one by Jean Anouilh, which has very personal take on Antigone herself and her relation with Polynices (check him on wiki if you don't remember the play).
But back to TLS. Janine willingly brought war on her own country and it's safe to assume that outside of civilian suffering (you know, standard pillaging and rape stuff), it resulted in deaths of thousands of people fighting in the main army which clashed with Simon's forces. Story tries to make it look like Janine isn't responsible for that, as general decides to march out by herself, but it simply doesn't work like that. Janine was the one behind the events and its only logical that army and most valuable citizens will try to defend their country against invasion of ruthless monsters (orcs) and sexual predators (orcs, succubi) led by the guy named freaking Doom King.
That terrible crime is simply unredeemable and impossible to repay to those who are dead (dead like in DEAD) and for hundreds of thousands who lost their loved ones (the number of affected people grows exponentially). Death, or lifelong exile if you are super soft, is the only possible conclusion.
Further thoughts can't really influence that, but its worth mentioning again, that Janine motivation is at least mildly relatable, but the conclusion of war is not: thousands got killed to improve living conditions of minorities. There's also encumbering fact that soldiers who died couldn't even willingly sacrifice themselves and instead perished in completely pointless political scheme.
There is a reflection from soldier sitting in Yhilin inn after war, one of my favourite in entire game. "Many in the city didn't lose anyone they knew, which means they don't understand what's been lost."
Forgot to mention that was mostly a joke. But above thoughts are serious.
DeleteThank you for providing your thoughts. I enjoy learning others' perspectives on characters. I will contest a couple of your points though.
Delete-Janine did not bring the war to her country, the corrupt nobles did. The tension between the nobles and commoners erupted into riots, and would have sparked into conflicts regardless of what Janine did.
-The people that benefited were not only minorities, but also the general populace and poor of Yhilin. The corruption that was rooted out by the deaths of the nobles and the policies enacted after Simon and company take power make Yhilin a better place for everybody but the corrupt nobles.
Funny thing with Janine is that written history tends to favor the victor, so while if Simon had lost the Battle for Yhilin then she would have been executed one way or another however their victory has mostly set the majority of Yhilin on the path to a golden age.
DeleteHistorians tend to gloss over death tolls along with most other atrocities, those that fought on the Doom King's side will be regarded as heroes, those who were involved in the coup against Janine will be vilified as traitors in that fated hour (probably sited as a major reason Janine lost the throne), the propaganda against Janine will get spun into a romantic love story (Succubi Historians will make sure of that), since she supported the victor her involvement will remain vague (unless she leaves a diary of some kind and even then who would prosecute her?), Orcs will get a place in history as heroes (a proud moment for Orc Historians), since these stories are the origins of the Doom King most will judge based on the peoples quality of life (as much as Simon would prefer otherwise it blows up in his face), the majority of people will see the sovereignty change hands as not negatively affecting their daily lives, the minority of nobles that remains will spin themselves as supporters of the new regime to keep their positions, how things truly played out will become distorted in the sands of time, and in Ari-Yhilina Square the next generation will look up to the statue of Yhilin's conqueror as the Hero that liberated them from the oppressive nobility that would run over commoner children for fun. Well those are my thoughts about how events will be remembered.
Hopefully Sierra will have an epilogue that explores the min-max differences for the regions, something like how star ocean 2 did with maybe a bit more sanity then to advertise 80+ possible endings.
I don't think Janine deserves to die for her actions.
DeleteLet me give an example, if someone cuts off another person's leg at the knee do they deserve to be punished? Almost everyone would say yes, someone capable of such a disgusting act of mutilation deserves to be punished!!
But what about another example, if a man has a severe incurable infection spreading through there lower leg, should a doctor be punished for cutting that leg off at the knee? Most people would say no. Some people would be hopeful saying the doctor should keep searching for a magical cure or pray the infection would go away on its own...but that won't work. All that hope will do will kill the patient in a slow agonizing death as the infection grows and festers. Cutting off the leg quick and clean and and the doctor helping the patient recover is the only thing that can be done. They won't get the leg back, but it's better then the alternative.
Thats how I view Simon and Janine's actions. Yes they did a terrible thing that led to suffering, but only to prevent greater suffering later. The fightng of the corrupt nobles and starving poorer sections were going to destroy Yhillin albeit slower. You could say that the should have searched for a magical solution to clear the corruption of nobles without any other death, or prayed the riots would go away on there own...but that wouldn't work.
They did what they had and did there best to help Yhilin recover after. The leg that was cut off wont ever come back, and the people who died wont ever return...but it was better then the alternative.
"Anonymous" I didn't think about events from this perspective and admit that I don't remember relevant part of the game in details, so can't say exactly how serious was social unrest. From what I recall it was more of a coup situation with no indication of danger of country falling into complete disarray. The real life counterpart of dealing with "corrupt nobles" and country unrest often leads to establishing military junta, which is always veeeery controversial as it invites abuse of power. How much more problematic is inciting war and allowing foreign occupation?
DeleteJanine brought and planned war in the most direct way; I take that your point is how nobles bear transit responsibility of sort. I agree with that and the difference in views would be the extent of said responsibility.
I think that to decide this it's necessary to consider how much influence their actions had on Janine decision and how adequate was that decision to the situation. I think there was serious influence but inadequate reaction - war and foreign occupation is not an answer to the corruption. What's more Simon actions were completely corrupt in a broad sense of using unlawful methods to achieve advantage on bureaucratic level (he also did textbook stuff like accepting gifts from noble houses in exchange for political support, but I think it's legal in USA?), so we end up with some "good corruption" vs "bad corruption" situation.
Yes, Yhilin became much better place for many people, but definitely not for everyone except nobles in current generation. Would you take poor place with those you love or thriving one alone? And dead themselves surely can't enjoy it, although I admit that quality tombstones can go a long way.
After all this said, it may come as a surprise, that you did broaden my view and convinced me of sort. I think Janine is responsible but now exile seems more fair than public execution. [One thing I didn't mention is how this view and my previous omission of nobles actions comes in part from the existentialism inclination, which means emphasis on individual, his/her freedom of action and responsibility for it.]
There is also one more thing. You see, we speak all the time about something like public justice and private morality. But there is another factor that comes with non-accidental mention of ancient tragedy. Inevitability of fate. Ancient tragedy characters are often hardly guilty, yet they have to suffer. That's a bit foreign view for me, but similar idea can be applied to Janine situation. It was inevitable (out of her control) that nobles greed would get better of them and so was Simon invasion, whether she helped it or not (that is good argument for her, one I don't recall being used yet!). Yet when she contributed to so much death and suffering, she is stained in a way and that mark of fate leads to undeserved but fitting and inevitable end. I like this, so poetic I almost forgot her responsibility.
Notice how she even looks a part with long gray hair and a bit of lingering sadness in her eyes. I wonder if something along the tragic fate story wasn't part of Sierra plan for her as a character, because some scenes definitely play like that.
I will write on other comments tomorrow, it's very nice conversation from everyone.
Thank you! And I want to say i'm glad for your perspective on it too as I feel my view of Janine was broadened as well.
DeleteInitially I thought of her as more 'unsung hero' who willingly self-sacrificed herself into the role of a Pariah. But now...I don't know 'anit-hero' doesn't sound quite right, maybe a 'necessary evil?'
From what I can remember of the state of Yhilin pre-invasion it was bad. There was of course the two coups. But post summit Janine mentioned a noble family was butchered in the streets, with a noble response just as severe. And when the invasion starts a noble is threatening to have his cart run over an injured child if she isn't pushed out of the way. So I'd definitely judge that as needing severe action, but if that is a justification to the doom king plan is another matter.
Another thing to note is that Janine still controlled most of the nation's army and did indeed keep them away from the fighting (save for the 2nd coup). So she did limit blood lose from that side.
And that goes to show just how much power the noble house amounted, the ENTIRE army that fought against the Doom King forces was made up soldiers outside the ruler's control. It might be a stretch but you could argue that the nation was already occupied by another power, and Janine merely swapped one for another.
And lastly for her actions is it fair to say that we already give our rulers..."moral leeway" for lack of a better word? That we give rulers a right to make decisions for what they believe to be the greater good?
A military draft for example, is something in our own society and while some object, the general populace accept it is necessary to defend ourselves. But the draft can be viewed as slavery.
Someone is forcing you to leave your life behind, become a soilder-a killer, and fight against people you probably never met. And if the drafted says no, then it's within the rights of the government to imprison or execute said person for cowardliness.
I debate whether the fact that it's clear the burden of the decisions weighs on Janine. On one hand I think that if she had made the choice coldly or without care then she should have been more severely punished. But on the other hand if my entire family was murdered from the decisions of another, would I care that much if they felt bad about it?
I think its safe to say I'm more rambling then philosophizing at this point. I think it's obvious that I am fairly pro-Janine at this point, but that may be just from bias as knowing her 'personally' with Simon.
Anyway I think that there are two points we can agree on.
Janine's actions are a very messy point to judge.
And that it has been very enjoyable to talk about!
It is worth mentioning that Janine's personal safety was a concern when the doomed king plan was being elaborated, the previous coup attempt was almost successful and they had intended to use a slave collar on her, at best they wanted to do so to make her a compliant political prisoner, at worse they might have intended to force her to humiliate herself in public displays, either way I have no doubt in my mind she would have endured a terrible ammount of abuse. Expecting anyone to just accept that kind of fate is too much.
DeleteI suppose an argument could be made that if Janine's well being was her only concern, she had the option of just abdicating her position, getting in a wagon in the middle of the night and disappearing. She certainly had some attachment to her position of power, but the game gives every indication that her motivation is benevolent, she wants to rule for the sake of the people in her nation and I don't think the world would be a better place if all "good" people had to refrain from acting just to remain "good". Power without righteousness can be catastrophic, but righteousness without power achieves nothing and the power vacuum remains. Ideally one would remain in power for as long as they could remain righteous, and then abdicate to a worthy successor when the time is right, but it is a pretty idealistic notion.
Back to the game, there's also the issue that removing Janine from the throne was never the endgame, Trin informs the player pretty early on that it was just part of a larger plan to destabilize Yhilin, but we didn't really know what was the motivation behind that at the time, as far as Janine was concerned this could have been the action of a foreign nation staging an invasion on Yhilin. Getting invaded by a nation is generally worse than getting invaded by a horde since a horde will eventually either integrate or be pushed out, so Janine supporting the doomed king plan could have been choosing the safer option for Yhilin.
Later we find out that the real motivation from the noble ringleader was some twisted form of social darwinism, she wanted to make Yhilin chaotic so it would give rise to a strong leader (it is possible she was lying to try to placate Simon by making her goal more agreeable to Simon's plan in the hopes he would spare her life), if that premise is accepted, then the result of Janine not supporting the doomed king plan would have been a long period of strife and chaos for Yhilin that would end with a ruthless leader taking over, and that's assuming no external power would take advantage of the situation. Bottom line is, refusing the doomed king plan would mean allowing many predictable and unpredictable catastrophic results to take place.
I think it is fair to judge a character based on their choices, but it is important to retain the context, making a disagreeable choice when all the viable alternatives are even worse is not a despicable thing to me.
"Bug Reporting"
DeleteI definitely agree as long as general populace is concerned, but think you might underestimate historians a bit. Tendency to gloss over human toll is definitely true, but they are no fools and there are many tools allowing somewhat unbiased estimation of situation (private memories, physical remnants of civilization achievements, archives of all sorts, for example trade books and court reports and so on). And then there is one more thing - no bigger joy for academic than to be original and prove others wrong at the same time!
Christian tradition made Nero look like a baby killing degenerate? Well let me tell how wonderful ruler he was. Caligula traditionally seen as deranged monster? He was just misunderstood misanthrope, with ironic sense of humor in the time of decadence. Arguing for that might even be the same guy, who has no problem with writing official chronicles praising current ruler. You gotta eat after all.
It makes me wonder what would be the contrarian story of Doom King conquest, contrasted with the golden tale. One thing I can bet you on, is how in the future there is going to be some orcish scholar triumphantly exclaiming to his colleagues: Fools, let me tell you the truth about Doom King conquest. It all starts with a guy named Simon and how he was an asshole...
Another interesting thing is how we, the recipients of the story, are subject to somewhat similar process. I'm not saying that TLS world is real and Sierra lies to us about it (doubt that), but narration is naturally led from the point of view of main characters (or another point chosen by the author). Of course there are ways to break this pattern and modern writers love to use them, like reflections from unnamed characters in TLS, but I think for TLS narration still naturally leads to very biased view, according to which all main heroes actions are justifiable. Maybe that's for the better, too much ambiguity can make story indigestible and we really shouldn't have to think about all dead babies. But it's still nice to stop and think about events long enough, to view them as less obvious in one-sided way (be it the main perspective or contrarian side).
Well getting the general populace is mostly a win, though a truly "unbiased" record isn't possible as those that write tend to put spins on the sides they favor and while historians can sort through it all there are just things that remain purely speculation to a reasonable degree.
DeleteThe part when some orcs will view Simon as an asshole, this sounds fun since I wonder what the world's list of the who's who of assholes would look like... There isn't a ruler that isn't an asshole to some group since you can't please all of the people all of the time. The Incubus King alone will give historians a royal headache. One of my favorite quotes after the war "We needed a 'Doom King' to repair a bridge... fuck us, maybe we deserve to be invaded."
True the player's choices does work into all this, one way or another we justify our decisions. Though must give Sierra credit for TLS world building, if these choices where not worth discussing then they wouldn't have much impact however here we are having fun with it all. Thanks Thumos
Unknown (the previous one, I'm a bit confused who is who at this point, but assume "Anonymous" forgot to log in last time and previous "unknown" is another person?). I'm very tired so forgive me if I mess something up and make no sense.
DeleteI get that line of thinking but have 4 problems with your example:
1) Life-death situation. In gangrene example patient simply loses his limb to save his life, but for many participants of TLS events bad variant meant losing their life and good variant meant no significant change.
So now imagine a group of people afflicted with disease that can only be cured via operation that has notable risk of complications (for example loss of fortune/ lives work in TLS), up to death in the worst case scenario. Disease in turn is going to lead to more or less serious health problems for them (less for for wealthy human citizens, more for poor minorities in TLS), up to death in one or two cases. As you can see situation isn't nearly as clear as in your variant and it's safe to assume only some people from that group would take the risk. That leads to the next point.
2) Group responsibility. Now imagine that for some reason either all or none of the afflicted can have said surgery (that's the case with events of TLS). How to decide if it's right or wrong to start the operation? Things start to get very messy, but we can still count on some social norms, like majority vote after expert gives informed opinion about each case. That leads to point number 3.
3) Consent of affected. Sadly as it happens all affected people lost their consciousness so there is no way to ask them for consent to surgery (as is the case in TLS). What's more they became unconscious before even being transported to hospital, so it can't be said that they accepted being subject to procedures decided by doctors (it's safe to assume Janine wasn't democratically elected and Simon sure as hell wasn't). It is known from other sources that some of them would accept the situation but others were very vocal in their criticism of hospital, going as far as to claim they would never use it (people pro and against current ruler, that is Janine. Simon still has 0 legitimacy regardless). Things look grim? Well there's more, down for the final point.
4) Unwilling sacrificial lambs After exhaustive medical check-up it came to light that in order for some from unconscious group to be cured, others have to be sacrificed on the spot (soldiers); part of those were safe from most serious effects of the disease (probably mostly humans in army so we can assume majority).
And so human math on unwilling begins. Were it a hospital such thing would never pass, but we are more used to it on the grand scene of distant history. Maybe rightfully so and maybe some decisions have to be made, but at the very least I hope it shows things are much more problematic than simple gangrene operation. Which, by the way, was favourite rhetoric of one of the most bloody regimes in human history . ZSRR [USSR] and Nazi Germany propaganda loved to speak about cutting away sick tissue of society. I don't say it's not a good slogan nicely illustrating the idea of need to sacrifice something for greater good - it is and idea is relatable as well! But devil (and suffering) is in the details and history shows it can be THE devil. Not that I accuse Janine of anything so terrible, mind you.
I'm too sleepy to think now, would love to write more another time if something comes up and a bit on "T. Scout" comment , although I don't have much to say there, most points are relatable.
The 'Anonymous' poster above was me, 'Unknown' was another person. I changed it for something else and forgot to change it back.
DeleteOkay, intense argument and a bit late for it, but I'll give it a shot.
DeleteIn regards to the morality of the Doomed King Plan in regards to Janine's culpability. Several points.
1) We need to remember the exact conditions under which the Doom King Plan was concocted. The first coup against Janine had just happened, and it is clear that if not for Simon's arrival it would have succeeded. (Although one could also argue that without Simon's group helping the mercenaries they never would have gotten through the barrier to get the slave collars, that just means the coup wouldn't have used those. With Trin, it still would have succeeded). So Janine's position had just been shown complete unstable to the point that her being overthrown, and either turned into a prisoner, sex slave, or awaiting execution. Using whatever tool she had available was, on a personal level, basically the only chance she had for long term survival. Expecting a monarch who just barely survived a coup against them to not retaliate nor take actions to prevent this from happening again just isn't realistic.
2) This was not solely a plan developed by Simon and Janine. Riala and Sarai were also there. Now we can discard Riala since she was basically aiming for Simon to accrue power. However despite Sarai's...unique disposition, she is an extremely devout Ivalan and is also extremely well positioned to have judged Yhilin's viability as a state. She had many reasons to oppose the creation of a second Incubus King, but still advocated it as necessary. Even with her prior history with Simon influencing her, she was arguably the person there that most supported the Doom King Plan. When two different major political figures with little prior connections and differing positions, I believe it was said Janine hadn' been close to Sarai, both are willing to support the Doomed King Plan based on their knowledge of Yhilin it should at least show that this plan was based just as much on Yhilin's unstable position and dismal future without such drastic action. WE're also shown in a number of minor dialogue choices that no one is happy with the Yhilin of the time. While compromises can often leave everyone unhappy with the result, almost everything showed this was a case of everyone holding a knife behind their back and was merely waiting for an opening to use it. That Janine and everyone involved in the Doomed King Plan played by those rules isn't surprising, especially if they knew they had the biggest knife to put to use.
3) We need to remember the final goal of the Doom King Plan was to defeat the Incubus King. This was not solely to reform Yhilin, but to reform Yhilin as a foundation to defeat the Incubus King. Yhilin was but a single front in a larger war. Yet Janine clearly stated in that first meeting that she wasn't willing to sacrifice Yhilin just to defeat the Doomed King. She wasn't willing to sacrifice Yhilin for the good of Arclent. She needed to be shown that Yhilin too would benefit. The entire Doomed King Plan was also intended to end with the Doom King dying, merely being a temporary measure to conduct drastic and necessary reforms while also allowing them to marshal orcs and succubi against the Incubus King. It was not a permanent attempt to seize absolute power by either Janine nor Simon, thus the use of a stand in. Now while you could argue this was just as much to avoid the negative repercussions of doing it personally, it does show this was not about ego. Janine in fact would always end up in a position of being viewed as a pawn by the Doom King, and Simon accepted that his eventual exposure as Dargai would have negative repercussions on his reputation. They judged their reputation as acceptable losses for their true goals, and would be far from the only politicians/generals to make sacrifices on both a personal and moral level to achieve their ultimate goals. Focusing on those sacrifices and compromises solely is just as bad as ignoring them.
DeleteGot a bit more, but not sure how long I can make this and the rest of my thoughts are a bit scattered. Hope I contributed.
Turned out to be mostly about Sarai
Delete1. All of this makes her decision more understandable on personal level, but hardly does anything to justify inciting war, unless you think that monarch by birth has some special moral predisposition to treat country and it's subjects like his personal property. I simply don't.
2. I think this whole point serves as argument against Janine. Riala and Simon are foreign forces with their own agendas that have nothing to do with Yhilin. In fact at that point Riala would prefer Simon to be iron-handed succubi-style tyrant ruler over the world.
Sarai might be the least likeable of not-evil characters for me. She is typical blaze modern priest, atheist in all but the name. She just happens to endorse some of Ivala moral teachings, but from what I recall she was explicitly doubtful even about her existence. She's clearly using the power church offers as organization, despite disagreeing with religion core values like chastity. I despise dishonesty of that type and how she's perpetually fake, being herself only when talking with Simon. And mind that nobody forced her to join the church, if she has her own vision she's free to pursue it on her own. Not only does she work against church values, but also against pragmatic interests, by weakening it's position.
The only logical step from her position is to abandon religious thinking altogether (even Simon tells her something alogn the lines), and you can see the exact same pattern in the real world. I want my priests devout and sincere and think that's something valuable even on religious zealotry level, as long as it's under control; it's something that has unique place in society. What we don't need are some absurd charades with opportunistic secular priests.
This comment sort of evolved into being mostly about Sarai, so let me give you another example why I dislike her so much. Remember that situation about zealous high priest whom they moved away from power by magically tainting her purity? Let's call her X. I think it was absolutely despicable action from Sarai as high priestess (not from Simon). You can dislike X, but from what we know she was sincere in her devotion to the church. And guess what, she gets removed by hardly believing opportunist, possibly ruining her whole life as a priestess, as she's tainted. It's actually painfully realistic akin to real life processes and equally despicable. I hope at least Sarai won't influence Carina honesty.
To avoid misunderstandings note how it was written from secular point of view, as I'm through and through atheist myself. To sum things up I greatly dislike Sarai personality and think her actions are condemnable from moral point of view. Her participation in any plan is argument against it.
3. I agree that grand plan of freeing the world from tyrants like Incubus King makes the whole ordeal much more likeable and gives it some moral ground. The problem arises when people who lead such plans are willing to sacrifice others while they lose nothing in comparison. That's why Ginasta is such a great character - she suffers equally if not more (imprisoned/tortured/raped many times) as those caught in collateral damage of her righteous path. And as far as Janine is concerned I'm not convinced she really lost that much (let's not even talk about Simon who is living the dream). People who disliked her before events, like guy in merchant district or lady in the outskirts, will dislike her even more, just with the added element of sexual insults. She would lose her standing as independent ruler anyway so nothing lost there. So we have her living in a palace feeling somewhat guilty about thousands dead. This doesn't exactly cut it for me, although let me stress again that I do sort of like her as a character (at least she has actual conscious, something most characters in TLS sorely lack).
To clarify: I don't imply that someone who has good intentions and hurts others along the way should suffer at least equally to them. That would be very strange retribution based view. My point was that their own suffering proves sincerity of their conviction. Without it it's hard to tell at times. So I know Ginasta treats her ideals seriously to the point of self sacrifice, while I'm not so sure about Janine. This problem doesn't have easy solution from the point of view of sincere person who happened to be lucky, but some things can be done (for example giving up personal wealth to help others).
DeleteSarai is very devout to Ivala, what she admits is that she never felt a divine presence interact with her directly in the same way Carina claims she has. The exchange you're thinking about between Simon and Sarai is when Sarai is asked why she doesn't have a problem working with a non-believer like Simon, she explains that in her beliefs a good goddess like Ivala wouldn't disapprove of the good Simon can do just because he had doubts about her, Simon replies that since she believes that, she is close to having a purely moral philosophy without the need for superstitious beliefs, Sarai replies with "Yeah, fuck you too".
DeleteYou can consider Sarai disloyal to the institution of the church since she is publically deceitful about her position on some of their dogmas, but sometimes the best way of reforming a system is to work from inside of it, and without her position in the church she wouldn't have the resources to be able to do as many good works in the name of Ivala. Sarai uses the church as a tool because she only believes in the sanctity of Ivala, not the sanctity of the church.
Thumos I think you need to consider the idea that your dislike of many characters in TLS is an extension of your repulsion to ruthlessness, not to some fault in their motives or their integrity. The protagonists of TLS are benevolent and they never falter to self-serving temptations or in the face of strong adversity, but they also do not refrain from taking any course of action if they judge it as the best possible one to further their cause.
I think the main question is, would you approve of such a person if they were devoid of corruption and incompetence? If yes, you will probably find the story in TLS to be really cathartic, if not, you will probably find the story in TLS to be more provocative, but never-the-less pretty interesting.
About Sarai. Reforming is great and all, but what she's doing seems more like demolition by crocking. If you give up all the main claims of religion in favor of unspecified private hope of something better beyond material world, then institution of church becomes redundant and so does faith as it's commandments are primitive version of moral philosophy.
DeleteI think that Sarai is well written character; save for her comedic cursing she very much resembles some people I know and their mindset. Actually I came up with unoriginal joke on the topic:
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Guy enters Department of Philosophy at university and stops staff member walking down the hall:
-Excuse me, I'm just writing this article on how church is a hoax and God might not exist and before publishing would like to consult it with someone sharing the view. Do you know who could help me?
- That would be philosophy of religion faculty, first door to the left. But please don't mention your doubts.
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Golden if you ask me, I'm going to test it on people in shortened version.
As for Sarai she is an ok person but very bad priest, why be a priest then? My reasoning is really straightforward: If you think that students' opinions are worthless you shouldn't teach; if you think that you know better you shouldn't be a therapist; if you can't take seriously others matters of faith you shouldn't be a priest.
Sarai definitely can't take seriously faith related troubles of others - she might take her own, but that qualifies her as a hermit/ascetic or private thinker outside of the church. History has plenty of the second type and I value them greatly. However she is terrible priest instead, one who laughs about troubles of people coming to her. In fact she has scene with Simon where she does exactly that - parodies people trying to get her advice in things that trouble them. That's disgusting. They come with things actually fucking important for them, she pretends to listen while thinking along the lines of "fucking tools" and later makes them the object of her jokes in informed company. So disgusting even thinking about it makes me angry, because that's way too common among self perceived elites (be it intellectual or social) in every aspect of life.
I could see how someone didn't pay attention to that and thinks she is ok, but really can't wrap my head around judging her as some shining unorthodox devout. Have you only met the most deranged priests or something, because I know some great ones and Sarai isn't even CLOSE.
For example a priest with 2 PhDs who could be anyone he wanted, yet splits his time between theology matters and privately helping others, which doesn't stop him from always having a time to talk about things with some atheist student like me. I mean Sarai is bad as it is but in comparison with actually devout humble and open minded attitude she looks like egocentric bitch.
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DeleteI'm sorry Thumos but you are just wrong.
DeleteNot in a "My opinions differ from yours, therefore you must be wrong" sort of way. I just think you've misremembered or misinterpreted a lot of Sarai's dialogue and actions leading to severely exaggerated negative conclusions. I'd recommend an additional run through of the game.
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"Sarai might be the least likeable of not-evil characters for me. She is typical blaze modern priest, atheist in all but the name. She just happens to endorse some of Ivala moral teachings, but from what I recall she was explicitly doubtful even about her existence."
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That could not be further from the truth, as in her own words, "She's devout as balls." She has never once given a single indication of not believing in Ivala. And has gone at lengths to show this.
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"She's clearly using the power church offers as organization, despite disagreeing with religion core values like chastity. I despise dishonesty of that type and how she's perpetually fake, being herself only when talking with Simon."
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Again no, while she is not 'happy' about it she acknowledges the reason behind it. It was a safety device put in place to ensure that none of the higher ranking church officials were under lust magic.
And she is not "fake" when dealing with anyone but Simon. She is simply 'letting her hair down' around friends.
For example do you curse in front of your grandmother? No it is not proper. Do you curse when you are drinking out with friends? Yes, because you're just chillin.
Does that make you a "Fake and a Liar!" in front of your grandmother? No, everyone changes how they conduct themselves regarding their setting.
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"Not only does she work against church values, but also against pragmatic interests, by weakening it's position."
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I'm sorry but you have severally gone off the rails with your opinion of Sarai. Sarai's last name is "Pragmatic" with her middle being "bear-fucking." She disproves of spending money to restore a church building to a shrine, and approves of using more money to convert the building to an aid station to the poor.
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"The only logical step from her position is to abandon religious thinking altogether (even Simon tells her something alogn the lines), and you can see the exact same pattern in the real world. I want my priests devout and sincere and think that's something valuable even on religious zealotry level, as long as it's under control; it's something that has unique place in society. What we don't need are some absurd charades with opportunistic secular priests."
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No, just because parts of the system offend you does not mean you should abandon it, since it would do nothing to help the situation. Also you can't compare matters of faith in our world with that of TLS. Because being an atheist is wrong in that world on a fact level. Goddesses exist and denying that would be a factually incorrect point of view. You can deny their worship, but not there existence.
Continued
Delete"This comment sort of evolved into being mostly about Sarai, so let me give you another example why I dislike her so much. Remember that situation about zealous high priest whom they moved away from power by magically tainting her purity? Let's call her X. I think it was absolutely despicable action from Sarai as high priestess (not from Simon). You can dislike X, but from what we know she was sincere in her devotion to the church. And guess what, she gets removed by hardly believing opportunist, possibly ruining her whole life as a priestess, as she's tainted. It's actually painfully realistic akin to real life processes and equally despicable. I hope at least Sarai won't influence Carina honesty."
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Okay no. Let's not call her X let's use her name, "Andra" and lets not forget that Andra was a racist bigot. Let's not forget that Andra routinely used church resources to trample of the down trodden. Let's not forget that Sarai tried on multiple occasions to reach peace with Andra through words. Lets not forget that Andra was openly trying to inspire violence against even the non-combatants among the succubi. Let's not forget out of the very many things we could have done to Andra, we just hit her with a harmless lust spell. And lets not forget we did not remove Andra from her position, it was the blind fear and hate of all things even touched by lust that she preached, that was her undoing.
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"However she is terrible priest instead, one who laughs about troubles of people coming to her. In fact she has scene with Simon where she does exactly that - parodies people trying to get her advice in things that trouble them. That's disgusting. They come with things actually fucking important for them, she pretends to listen while thinking along the lines of "fucking tools" and later makes them the object of her jokes in informed company. So disgusting even thinking about it makes me angry, because that's way too common among self perceived elites (be it intellectual or social) in every aspect of life."
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No, she pokes fun at people who come with petty self-centered concerns of their own faith WHEN THERES A FUCKING WAR GOING ON. Are those concerns important to the sisters who bring them? Maybe. But my TV remote being broken is important to me, it doesn't give me the right to kick in the pope's door and demand he help me fix the problem. He is fucking busy. SHE is fucking busy with a war that will decide if they live or die and and the sisters are coming to her because they have trouble with faith.
She should have told them to A.Ignore there own discomfort and try to help, as is there job. or B. Not bother her with your headache when she is trying to help the literal sick and dying.
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"I mean Sarai is bad as it is but in comparison with actually devout humble and open minded attitude she looks like egocentric bitch."
Do remember the time Sarai helped form the first ever all faith's gathering in Yhillin in order to help the poor? Do you remember how she faced heavy opposition and ridicule from her sisters for that? Do you remember how she even invited the atheist charity planner because she could care a fuck about being an atheist if your a charity planner. Do you remember how she even acknowledged many points from the other religions but still remained committed to Ivala because she has an open mind?
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Saria is kind, self-sacrificing, and most importantly devout as balls. She simply doesn't care for the fake as hell pomp and circumstance of the church that gets in the way of helping people. She doesn't hate Ivala, and she doesn't hate religion as she respects many of the people in it.
T. Scout you might be thinking about Bertricia when you're thinking about a High Priestess that is devout, but can't feel Ivala. Sarai can feel Ivala. She mentions feeling something when she goes to pray during a conversation with Simon.
DeleteFor the comment on Sarai, mostly I just wanted to clarify that Sarai is a believer, your previous comment implied she was faking her faith in Ivala when all she did was mention she never had a direct interaction with Ivala, which is not unusual at all, Bertricia, the high-priestess from the elven kingdoms is the same, she also never heard Ivala talk to her either and she is unorthodox so to better preach to the elves, but I don't think that's enough reason to call her faith into question.
DeleteI don't agree with your extrapolation that Sarai is giving up all the main claims of her religion, she might be refuting some core ones but I sure hope there is more to the church of Ivala than chastity and monogamy. I do agree with you however in that the dogmas of a religion are important to its identity if nothing else, and that treating them as sacred is extremely important to help the followers to develop and practice their faith.
I think ideally Sarai would have converted to a religion more in line with her views or made her own church, but for some reason the world of TLS is sorely lacking religious variety, which is a bit weird considering there seems to be very little religious persecution, perphaps it has to do with religion having a type of magic tied to it, but I don't to speculate much on it since the game seems to be gearing towards a major religious segment in the future and that could have some answers.
Finally, I don't really know if Sarai had many ambitious alternatives available to her other than joining the church, as a halfling woman, and I didn't take the parody scene you mentioned to be as malicious as you're making it out to be, if it's the one I'm thinking, it's the one where Sarai is dealing with the aftermath of the Doom King invasion, it seemed to me she was more just venting her tiredness of having to deal with many prietesses bringing the same concerns over and over rather than thinking them stupid for coming ask her for guidance.
Now for the second comment, by 'benevolent' I just mean having a desire to improve other people's lives, by 'self-serving temptations' I mean things one would betray their own ideals for, bluntly summarized by Simon early in the game when he says "I won't let the world be damned just so I can get my dick wet" or something along those lines. Plenty of characters from the TLS cast have benevolence as their motivation, but they derived different goals from it, Ginasta thinks the best thing she can do for the world is to eliminate immortal tyrants, Simon thinks the best he can do for the world is to use his power to enforce positive changes, and that's why they do the things that they do. There aren't many motives better than benevolence.
DeleteSince you brought up consequentialism earlier, then you should understand the concept of commiting a lesser evil in exchange for a greater good. Arguing a person can't be benevolent just because they are willing to cause harm strikes me as short-sighted. To me it is integrous to not abandon a plan just because there will be difficulties in it.
Regarding compassion, you will most certainly disagree with me on this, but I think dramatic emotional responses to expected situations would be very out of place, they come to me as either signs of foolishness ("oh no I didn't know this was going to be a consequence of my previous actions") or indecisiveness ("oh no the thing I expected to happen happened but now I'm very remorseful woe is me"). I don't think being able to remain unfazed is the same as indifference, it can instead be a feat of emotional control, which can come from maturity and experience, both being some of Simon's main traits.
TLS comes as cathartic to me because it's a story of ambition that isn't being killed for incredibly dumb reasons. We live in times where most literature just preaches things like learning to accept the world for what it is and to just be satisfied with simple goals. I don't mind that philosophy, but it annoys me that every story that goes the opposite way and talks about ambition ends up with the ambitious character becoming a villain or being just yet another cautionary tale. It is the ambitious character suddendly becoming extremely petty and corrupting themselves and now it's a story about how power is always a bad thing and human nature means that everyone will be a sellout after a certain point of success. Or it is the ambitious character that was so smart and capable suddendly becoming an idiot and screwing up things but it is okay because they learned the valuable lesson that things are complex, and because they are complex it means it is impossible to do good things and letting things be is the best thing to do no matter what. Or it is the ambitious character getting destroyed by some karmical magic that conspicously ignores any good they might have done. Or it is the ambitious character dying and then everything they achieved crumbling away, cleverly showing the pointlessness of it all and how it would have been easier to just not do anything. And that's all without mentioning the ones that straight-faced recommend being selfish above everything else as a good thing.
TLS isn't doing any of that, so far it has been a story of ruthless benevolent characters being driven and being given a chance to make a difference in the world without things going wrong and everything being ruined for no apparent reason and to me it feels good to finally get a story that is letting that play out.
Nomixam, you might be right, I'm replaying the game so I will get to that scene eventually, from what I remember I interpretated it as Sarai meaning she could feel something, just not something clear enough she could isolate and pinpoint as Ivala without a shadow of a doubt, different from Carina who could casually ask Ivala for advice and could identify magic that "felt" like her.
Delete[A]
DeleteSarai
Oh boy, I didn't expect that. Glad to see I'm not the only sick puppy around here.
"I'm sorry Thumos but you are just wrong"
Don't be, I survived being called "just wrong". It even has this nice righthousness ring to it! Although now it seems Im dscussing things with my own sorry butt, what did you know, internetz suprise you every day.
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"in her own words, "She's devout as balls."
Every moral/religious thinker outside of official church ever, thought about himself as the one who has it right (and for all that i know was sincere). So let me repeat: I think she would make a good one.
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"And she is not "fake" when dealing with anyone but Simon. She is simply 'letting her hair down' around friends."
Duuuude... She's not eating dinner with her grandma, she holds official high ranking church position, the same church that makes a big point about chastisty (also of your fucking mouth). The issue is that she's intentionally deciving everyone around her as to her views and your example completely ommits that. So yes, if she made it a point to present as pure innocence in front of grandma while she dreams of gobling dicks (exatly Sarai case) she would be fake by all accounts. You may sympathize with her and think it's okay thing to do, but the fact remains.
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"Not only does she work against church values, but also against pragmatic interests, by weakening it's position." - that was me
And your following answer how Sarai is bear-fucking pragmatic.
Your whole response is case in point illustration of my argument. The citied fragment was about Sarai role in church as institution. If Sarai would rather build public shelters than chapels she's not a good leader for the church from pragmatic point of view. Giving up on wealth and influence to help others as well as inviting introduction of other cults works against church pragmatic interests.
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"The only logical step from her position is to abandon religious thinking altogether"
Your response: "No, just because parts of the system offend you does not mean you should abandon it, since it would do nothing to help the situation."
Personal offence has nothing to do with discussed situation, we talk about core values that make or break church identity. What would be those is not certain with limited information we have, but here are some I recall mentioned in one form or another:
1)Helping those in need. Sarai passes this.
2)Chastity/purity. In different forms for 3 different factions.
Sarai doesn't pass this, she's unfulfilled slut and encourages/envies others for being one too. Now I brace for you arguing how she's the purest girl ever, who just happens to speak about sex every seond time she open her foul mouth.
3)Doctrine of Ivala divinity and superiority over others. Sarai may pass the first part (I'm not sure about that but you seem convinced), however she definitely fails the second one. She encourages other creeds. Now you might say she does think Ivala way is the best one but that's private moral preference which is something completely different than THE truth given by God.
This lead to my point which I'm goign to space out to stress it even more.
[B] Forgot to run previous part through spell checker, my bad.
DeleteThe point: Sarai agrees with some secular values but disregards all religious ones save for belief of Ivala divinity. But that is [a] private and inconsequential - it doesn't entail any specific way of acting, and [b] a matter of fact in some form thus within secular realm (thanks for pointing that out).
The rest follows but I wrote enough on that.
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"Also you can't compare matters of faith in our world with that of TLS. Because being an atheist is wrong in that world on a fact level"
How does that invalidate any comparison I made? You would have to show that, because differences don't negate similarities as a rule.
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About Andra I have very limited trust of your representation being unbiased (you like Sarai too much) but don't remember the details well enough to argue, so I can't further comment on this one.
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"SHE is fucking busy with a war that will decide if they live or die and and the sisters are coming to her because they have trouble with faith."
Well that's completely different impression than I got from this scene. Speaking of facts I take we have that:
1. Sarai is busy managing church affairs (helping others among them)
2. People come to her with matters of faith
3. She considers it to be idiotic but doesn't show that
4. She later parodies them in front of informed party (Simon).
The rest are interpretations and if you agree with the facts list, both have ground and stem from our vastly different general impressions of Sarai.
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I loved your last point, but I don't think it served your cause well. The way I view things you have completely secular perspective on things (it shows in pretty much every single one of your points) so you admire same stance from Sarai. But again, it doesn't qualify her as a priest. People frequently face same difficulty when discussing historic church and it's influence on society in medieval ages.
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"Saria is kind, self-sacrificing, and most importantly devout as balls."
Sure looked like a bitch to me. But I can see you really like her and who am I to slander your wai.. favourite character.
Now honestly you did change my view of her as a person a bit. Won't like her (fine person in the wrong position she chose herself) but she has some perks.
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That was long. So back to the beginning. I will keep treating our differences on this matter as those of opinions and not of facts. For the latter to come true citations followed by precise reasoning are needed. What we both did was presenting our general impressions as well as interpretations of some scenes.
T.Scout. I might try later/tomorrow, it's simply too much at once even for me (I did read your thoughts though!).
Sarai would be a theist since she believes in the Goddess Ivala and never makes a claim otherwise. Simon would fall more towards atheist since even if he finds that the Goddesses exist his shard power would potentially rival theirs and accepting them as divine would mean he is divine or while they all are powerful none of them are truly divine.
DeleteAs for Sarai not fully respecting the doctrine well what religion truly does? Less any scripture was written directly by Ivala then these are tales written by people with different agendas just like her. Many cherry pick the things they like and avoid the less defendable parts... Makes sense, if you had an imaginary friend who you modeled as your goddess then you would want them to be likeable too and everyone defines likeable differently. Would Saria like an Ivala that protects the weak, feeds the poor, and overall brings a mother's love onto the world or an Ivala the makes sure the choirboys gets a happy ending to the face from their local priest? Think she goes with the Ivala in her head wouldn't mind if a shiv took care of some trash. One could argue that since the Church of Ivala protected that priest and potentially others like him then Ivala could be believed to have a kink for that sort of thing however through Aka divine justice was served. So in a way didn't someone think of the children? This was a chance for Sarai to clean house a little though what would she say to Ivala if she ever actually met her deity?
Damn, I should have checked this last night before bed. I missed just about an entire discussion after my comments. Okay, I'll try to focus on Thumos' first reply to me just because replying to everything would be...difficult.
DeleteI'll start with Sarai, since this has largely degenerated about her. However I will admit I am a person with little religious experience, so I might miss some rather obvious opinions for a more religious person regarding priests.
1) I can accept your point about Sarai's overall dishonesty. I would only raise the consideration of her motives and sacrifices. Sarai clearly hates the chastity restrictions, but she accepts it as a sacrifice of achieving her position (even though those restrictions came about to protect the church leaders from the Incubus King, no longer a factor in Chapter 4, and the fact that just breaking them through Simon would be possible with his power subsequently protecting her from other Incubus Kings to thus void said risk). Similarly, she hates the pretensions of the Church that require her to be unable to cuss, but still obeys the realities of the world. Now while this can easily be considered dishonest, as long as she doesn't compromise her core values it could easily be considered a realist approach since not doing as such would eliminate any ability for her to raise her influence to achieve her overall goals. Now while you clearly believe she has done so...
2) Regarding Sarai's criticisms of others in the church, let's not forget that the Church of Ivala is incredibly fractured. The three denominations, remember. This division is so great that Stineford banned Feroholm, the two Aramite High Priestesses are always fighting, etc. Taken with that view, Sarai disagreeing with other Ivalans both personally and professionally is actually entirely fitting with the setting. Sarai believes that accommodations have to be made for both purity and sin, can't remember what that denomination was called. The other two denominations either believe humans are born sinful and need to be purified or that humans are born pure and can be irrevocably tainted by sin. Those are incredibly different points of view, that clash terribly. If viewed in a similar strain as Protestantism/Catholicism/Orthodoxy, then the conflicts we see between Sarai and Andra are downright civil. It is easy to view Sarai's acts against Andra as purely personal dislike or pragmatism, but the actual religious differences are there too.
3)Let's also not forget that we are told multiple times that the Church of Ivala achieved its current relevance during the war against the Incubus King, as it had been so successful. It had also retained that relevance due to the continued threat of the Incubus King. Yet at several points in the game we see that focus and effectiveness threatened. The Stineford High Priestess is entirely focused on eradicating prostitution, the Aramite High Priestesses appear to be in constant conflict, etc. Sarai making sacrifices to prepare to eliminate the Incubus King is in fact totally in line with the Church's greatest period of growth and relevance. I will however admit that Hester really shows the counter argument for this. An experienced church leader who doesn't overly involve herself in the church conflicts but always advocated preparedness for the Incubus King, and always having a trick up her sleeve for the worst case scenario in the Ivala's Wall. The decision on whether to help the Unperson Motion pass or fail is still one of my hardest decisions, because it seemed likely to be overall good but would hinder the Doomed King Plan. I went against it since all the side plot with Vhala and Dari showed it as sketchy, but it was one point I admit the interests of the Doomed King Plan and defeating the Incubus King didn't always align perfectly.
Delete4) The Religious Council Sarai helped organize is itself a sign of Freedom of Religion. I'm not sure how it would be viewed for a priest to advocate FoR, but from outside it's generally regarded as a good thing. It also doesn't necessitate a lack of belief in Sarai. If we listen to Bertricia's theories, the 'true' Ivala is a supreme goddes while it is possible there are lesser goddesses and possibly even a lesser goddess posing as Ivala. So accepting the potential existence of these goddesses doesn't cost Sarai much, but her efforts do show a generally moral course in creating cooperation and encouraging religious freedom in favor of solving more pressing issues.
As for whether the characters are shown to be compassionate or not, this I have to disagree with you.
DeleteFor Simon, let's not forget his personal experience. He fought in the first war against the Incubus King, fought after it, fought in Zirantia where he lost his wife alongside many other soldiers, and did numerous efforts after that in hopes of one day killing the Incubus King. He will have dealt with numerous feelings of guilt and responsibility already. Expecting him to go through the same emotional crisis' simply doesn't fit.
What is relevant is his different position. We are told Simon was an average or below average warrior for most of his life, despite intense effort. He was a grunt, if an experienced and dedicated one. The difference for the game is that Simon now has power, and is in a position of power to engage in different options of fighting the Incubus King. We are repeatedly told of Simon's hesitance regarding his power. From his early hesitance, his later fears regarding the Shard influencing events around him, etc. And a person in power naturally maintains a certain position regarding battles and losses. If every general or political leader broke down from their acts, that would be incredibly unstable, and one could then claim every general and political leader during war is morally deficit.
Simon has seen the costs of war already. He thus goes out of his way to minimize the cost, estimates and accepts the costs of acting, and is happy when he can do good rather than mourn the losses he couldn't help.
As for the rest of the characters. Here, I most disagree with you. Even if we aren't constantly barraged with the characters' doubts (thankfully, as reading of all 20+ major characters go through emotional crisis' sounds terrible), we are shown their compassion at multiple points. In addition to numerous small conversations and a number of quests to 'help', it is also a vital aspect of the gameplay itself. The Relationship points. Doing good in the battles/wars nets relationship points, and doing badly decreases them. Investments also increase relationship points by helping people the characters too want to help. So while it isn't shoved down our throat, there is a clear and present trend throughout the game that doing good and improving the lives around you is something the harem agrees with. They might not leave you for coming up short, but it is clear that everyone (besides maybe Trin) wants to and approves of helping the people around you throughout the game.
T Scout comment, priestesses variety and Beatrice who is great.
Delete"For the comment on Sarai, mostly I just wanted to clarify that Sarai is a believer"
I wasn't sure whether she is convinced of Ivala existence or not, due to the scenes mentioned in discussion. Seeing how all of you confirm her to be a believer I take that for granted and we can consider this matter settled.
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I like how we have different priest archetypes: Sarai, Beatrice, Carina, Andra, Hester. What I dislike is how the zealot type (Andra) is made to be stupid, but as mentioned some times before it's perpetual TLS theme (in my opinion unfair). I would also love to have male priest with structured moral rules but that won't happen (by the way is it explained why there are no male priests?).
I love Carina and Beatrice; Beatrice being good comparison point for Sarai. Sarai is great city intellectual type, entangled in hierarchy wars and achieving her goals of reforming the church to her vision by scheming and dishonesty. Her saving grace is that her motives are not those of personal gain. As for her shortcoming as a priest and church leader I already commented on them. Beatrice is also intellectual but of humble variety, choosing slow change via work with people. She is the type of priest I could respect and support, the salt of the church soil. Carina is the same but less intellectual and we know more about her personal struggles.
One thing I wonder about is if those of you who like and respect Sarai would feel the same about her real life equivalent.
Which are your favourites guys?
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DeleteThere are no high ranking male priests due to discrimination against in the Church ranks. I can't remember exactly why they're discriminated against, harder to make purity spells be accurate maybe?
DeleteI would say why people dislike Andra, not only because she's a zealot because you could call Ginasta a zealot and plenty of people like her, because she harms the people she's supposed to be helping with her zealotry. Not once has it been shown that her actions have been helpful in anyway. She can't see points of view that haven't been taken out of an Ivalan holy text. And with what happens in the Yhilin Final, it proves that she didn't have anything beyond those views.
I do like the other members of the Ivalan clergy and the other religions, I think it's a good repesentation of how you can be devout in your own way.
They just didn't trust men to keep it in their pants figuring a succubus would easily get all their war secrets. As for demilitarizing the Church of Ivala well they already are out for blood with the new Incubus King, or did anyone forget that's what Simon is and he is better than his predecessor. I liked Andra, she was the comic relief of the priestesses.
DeleteFirst regarding the priestesses, I'd say that in terms of just being a priest, Beatrice is probably the best one because her focus is on theology and proselytization, she has published several well regarded religious books and is trying to find ways of making the church of Ivala more attractive to elves and even other races. But that is not to say the other priestesses don't have merit to their methodology.
DeleteSarai is focused on regulating the church and keeping the institution useful to the population at large, not just to the richer followers, and that plays right into Sarai's methodology, which seems to be among the lines of "lead by example". By keeping the church focused on charitable works, she can reach out to people that were struggling in life too much to be able to develop their contemplation, as well as showcase the grace of Ivala in more tangible ways, once people are convinced of the goodness of Ivala, then they can start praying with real devotion. Pretty much everyone in the game that knows Sarai as a priestess agrees she is one of the purest souls in the church, there is no doubt that when she is fulfilling her functions she comes across as completely pristine, you are convinced she only does so because it is a way of gaining influence over the church, but another possibility is that she is also aware the character she plays is the one that better inspires people. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, to me we are what we can make ourselves be.
Hester is focused on representing the church and its interests among the other powers of the world, she seems to be the all but official head of the church, and my impression is that she upholds the faith through legitimacy and causing awe, after all, its not difficult to foster the idea that an absolute badass like her must have god on her side.
The problem with Andra and the high priestess of Stineford isn't that they don't uphold the faith, the problem is that the way they do it leads to fanaticism and elitism, which aside from being a noxious thing for the rest of the world, in the long term it can lead to the ostracization of the church and faith as a whole, much like it has happened in some parts of our world. I think zealotry is fine when it is a tool to develop discipline and dedication, but it becomes bad if care is not taken to stop it from leading into arrogance and discrimination, and Andra certainly did not care about letting that happen.
Lastly, I think I need to elaborate that I respect the need for dogmas and the importance of having an identity to a religion, but a religion cannot become incompatible with the world where it exists, if it becomes incompatible, it has to go through reformation. I don't know how far in the game you are Thumos, but a subject that is being approached in chapter 4 is that some of the more strict aspects of the Ivalan church have become incompatible with the acceptance of succubi, and we are going to have to see and perphaps do our best to influence how the church is going to react to that.
Thumos, regarding benevolence, my definition of "competence" is more all-encompassing than you assume, taking your example, how did one derive that killing jewish people would improve the rest of society? Was that improvement greater than the loss caused by all those deaths? (note that if you calculate this while attributting little to no value to the life of a jewish person, then you need to justify why you're doing that, and at this point pretty much all explanations will rely on completely asinine assertions about the nature of a jewish person) If you somehow made it this far with with sound reasoning, then with your understanding of the relationship of causation, is slaughtering the jews the most efficient possible way of achieving the desired result? Are there no better alternatives?
DeleteWhere I'm getting at is that many terrible well-meaning decisions can come from lacking competence that is up to the task you're trying to do, and that incompetence can come from stupidity (erroneous assertions and faulty reasoning), or it can come from a lack of stable power ("the only way I was able to mobilize my people was by inciting bigotry and fanaticism"). Simon and some other characters in TLS are written as entirely competent, they are not stupid and they have plenty of stable power. With that definition of competence in mind, to me that becomes the formula of a true saint, benevolence as the ultimate driving force, the willpower to be selfless when it is required, and the competence to design and carry out positive actions.
TLS is fiction, so I can suspend my disbelief to how infallible Simon is written to be from a practical perspective, partially because I think TLS is really well made fiction. The problems are written to be simple enough that they are digestible enough to be resolved in the story, but are not so simple that they make you consider every character in the universe stupid for not having fixed it sooner. And often enough the solutions to the problems are not easy and may require ruthlessness and manipulation, I feel that adds some legitimacy to the narrative.
To me the TLS endgame is to create a stable world that allows as many harmless personal liberties as possible, including the right to be carefree and slutty. I don't have a problem with a world like that because people will still be free to be something else. The world I have a problem with is the one that tries to get everyone hooked up into being carefree and slutty when it comes to thinking, but still demands the diligence of a working bee just to be able to get by.
Caedmon. I think your point 3 was good reminder about differences within church. Later you sort of focused more on emotionality than compassion; as it happens I think that TLS is very low on emotions. And I'm not talking about Simon but every character, even those written as emotional (Altina comes to mind) and the world in general. It comes with Sierra writing style, objective and clean, good for describing external properties of situation and discussions, but not so much for inner thoughts and emotions. To be honest I think Sierra can't write about emotions very well, every scene which has them devolves into rather awkward situation with 2 people exchanging statements.
DeleteT Scout. I took a break around beginning of chapter 4 . I plan to catch up to development in near future though.
I think that church should be incompatible with the world, or at least that's the only kind that interests me. Only this kind of church brings incentive to act in order to fulfill yet unrealized goals and provides hope to people. That's the second side of the coin, as I'm pretty sure I know what you are getting at (first side so to speak).
I don't have problem with carefree sluttiness but it's not something I value in the slightest, so it doesn't make a compelling goal of the game and characters progression for me. As such I hope at least it won't be the main one.
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DeleteBy "incompatibility" I meant that a religion can't demand faith in something that is factually impossible, or require actions that are illegal or considerably prejudicial. To better illustrate, I mean that a church that requires belief in something like creationism as it is described in the genesis, when there is direct evidence proving it as false, is doomed to fail unless they reform, but I don't have anything against requiring belief in miracles that haven't been directly disproved or belief that the act of prayer is more than the reciting of a sentence, those things are matters of faith and it is what religion should be all about.
DeleteI didn't add my own moral criteria because most of the specifics are not pertaining to the conversation and I thought the basics could be assumed. As a human being that needs to support its own existence, my bias is that I think the existance of a human life is good, the existance of a human life that is unrestrained, productive, and free of suffering is better. Most things derive from that as trade-offs with ratios that are arranged and weighted based on a number of situational and contextual factors. Once again, I consider the details of those as not pertaining to the conversation, but if you are genuinely curious you can compile a questionnaire with as many variations of the trolley problem as you want and I would try to answer it.
I think an important part of my point that is not coming across to you is that I believe intelligent human thought patterns are inherently rational and self-aware, given similar levels of competence and similar views on benevolence and selflessness, they will tend to form similar moral spectrums. They won't reach extremes like "its okay to enslave a million people to make one person comfortable" with reason alone, they can only reach that if they perverse their notions of benevolence ("I don't care about the suffering of other people, so I have no objections"), their notions of selflessness ("I'm okay with it if I'm the one getting benefitted"), or have a flawed level of competence ("I have been led to believe this one person is for some reason more special than the collective of a million other people despite the lack of evidence"). The only exception I can think of would be some type of death lover that thinks everyone will be in a better place after they are dead, but to reach that on reason alone would require such a dark and unwavering faith, as well as an egocentric personality unwilling to reflect on how their opinion relates to that of others, that I'm going to allow myself to dismiss that case as a pathology or as a form of ignorance, and consequentially incompetence.
You can disagree with me here, but to me most "monsters" weren't born from minor moral differences, but instead from failing at one of the three factors I described, and sometimes just from historical bias.
I misjudged what definition of "competence" you were using, but I don't think the definition you are using is useful, I don't think such a level of competence could be personified, and as a consequence I don't think it could be self-aware and I don't think it could form any moral values, it would also remove "risk" as a factor of morality and judgement, I can't imagine a way of relating with that so I want to restrict competence to a peak human upper limit.
I used "saint" instead of something like ubermensch because I expected you to argue an ubermensch could be evil, so I wanted something to represent a "good ubermensch" even if it is redundant since any ubermensch in my rationale will be a good ubermensch.
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DeleteI agree that this discussion has gone far enough, I wouldn't say I have grown tired but it has been distracting me from some work I should focus on. I considered using examples from TLS to illustrate what I was saying and keep it a bit closer to the original topic, but I was afraid it would come across as biased and fabricated. I have appreciated the conversation and I will use the rest of this comment to succinctly respond to your final thoughts and will say no more on the matter.
DeleteI find that proofing some things from theoretical extremes is too strict, I'm more focused on finding an ideology I can use in this life, with human limitations.
The vagueness is by design, you are expecting me to explain something in precise details that would take pages to describe, in a comment section with character limits while hijacking the topic. I think the conversation had its value in a casual setting, but your interest seems to have grown combative and you're abusing the setting.
I'm well aware of what I said and its implications, even if they come as appalling to you, in your example, I would sacrifice the poor in a situation where the usefulness of the remaining lives was the main factor, but they would also be the priority in a situation where it comes to giving aid, since the value of their lives stand to increase the most. Not much different from what took place in chapter 3 of TLS.
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DeleteMost will see that big text and skip it
ReplyDeleteHello, i love your game is it among the first i ever played (among the one using RPGmaker that is it) which resulted in quite a bit of pain lol ... (Didn't know we could transfert save from one version to another) ... I stopped before Meg route was out and after all that time i started anew in the lastest version so make quite a bit since i was last there. But to my defence i finished Noxian Night twice :p (among other game played)
ReplyDeleteI don't know if was already asked but will we get the possibility of a new game+ ? (I'm not asking to keep our equip, lvl and money as the game is so well made than breaking the balance like that is no fun even for a NG+) But few perk/event could be added for perfectionnist or completionist or just those than want to enjoy a NG+ xD
Such as another variant of Qum whoring in stineford. Where when she say when only want to be Simon cumdump. Before you get to accept/refuse, yarra pull her outside to 'talk/convince' her. Mainly for show as yarra would use illusion on herself to look like Qum and accept the deal by herself.
IG i know why something like that is not happening for balancing purpose but mood wise (she look more than eager) and power wise it should be quite doable for yarra to do so. Making it fine in a NG+.
While i know it is quite early (or not ? given how much content there is) but i actually started thinking a lot about it because i recently finished simon route so i got reflect skill which i somehow linked to a time skill (Plz don't ask lol) Anyways the points is i don't think the NG+ need to be at the end of the story like all? game but could be somewhere in the game. That and while waiting for update people could have something to grind their teeth on :)
Several people have requested a NG+ mode, but it's something I can't see the design of right now. From a technical perspective it would take a script, because doing it manually would be close to impossible. But from a game perspective, I'm iffy on the impact.
DeleteAlternate scenarios would be fine, just time-consuming to implement. So I can't make any promises, other than that I'll continue to think about the subject.
Hey, this game chained me longer than I'm willing to admit, and now my inner minmaxer must know: How many rounds of investment returns will we be getting? Is it more or less than 5?
ReplyDeleteAlso, whats your stance on folks "decompiling" your game? I've red there's some juicy stuff in there, but i would feel guilty for reading up on it if you disapproved of the practice.
Anyway, keep up the good work! I already dread the days i wont have anymore TLS to look forward for.
Sorry, won't say the exact number just yet. Expect to keep getting investment rounds through the rest of the game, though!
DeleteUsing an engine like RPG Maker, I've considered decompiling to be inevitable. I'm a bit uncomfortable with everything I do being freely available like that, but I've messed around enough with internal content to make things unclear. So go ahead and enjoy a few new jokes. ^-^
Well, about decompiling, there are some interesting bits in there, like alternative Min designs for example. It's like looking a little bit at overall creation process. Plus Ivala, y'know.
DeleteSo i just wanted to check if the game have any arts for h scenes yet, been a while since the last time i played.
ReplyDeleteno
Deletewhen will the new update come out?
ReplyDeleteThis month. I am making good progress but can't say exactly when because there's something big I might have to work on again that could take up time.
DeleteAfter the two princesses are we going to visit Neranda?
ReplyDeleteAll I'll say is that you'll definitely visit Neranda in chapter four.
DeleteHello Sierra. I am really enjoying this game. Hoping you will continue doing what you do best~
ReplyDeleteFew things though. Do not let guy like Thumos or Alexandra dictate the way your story heading. This is your story, not theirs. Honestly I think Thumos read too much into the story, and nitpicking every single detail that doesn't follow his vision, no matter how small. Please do not let few vocal detractors influence you. I do concur that a few of Thumos points are valid. but the rest are...*shrugs*
And about Robin and Simon, I think you really did an amazing job portraying their relationship and insecurities, their character development and growth. Please do not let some "moral" guys changed the way you weave these story. Honestly from all the relationship Simon has, I think the relationship that formed between Simon and Robin is one that I like the most. It is so sincere and heartfelt.
A question though. Why do you decide not to include Tyna in the harem as well? At least, that is what seemed to happen. Just curiousity.
Ah 1 more question *doh*. do you have a plan for some kind of sequel to Ouroboros?
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DeleteHi, someone, thanks for the kind words!
DeletePeople have been showing up with strong opinions since pretty much the beginning and I try to listen to all opinions. If someone has a point I believe could improve the game, I'll act on it. If someone wants something fundamentally different, I thank them for their opinion. I especially understand people who state "I understand your intent but I had this reaction to the game" - all of that to say that I encourage such feedback.
Having said that, I hope I don't come off as vacillating when it comes to my vision. I simply don't think it's a creator's place to "defend themselves" or argue against reactions to a game.
Thumos: You've several times stated some level of self-awareness regarding how your messages might be perceived. I would invite you to consider taking a step back on this one. The above user said they agreed with some of your points but felt others were nitpicky - you are free to disagree, but I don't think the conversation is likely to be moved forward by responding with more personal insults.
On Tyna: I structured this story for its genre, but it was important to me that by the end Simon doesn't have a sexual relationship with every major female character.
On Ouroboros: Honestly, no. Ouroboros is the story I meant to tell, focusing on the cycle and the characters' relationship within it. However, you are far from the only person to request a sequel, and I take that common emotional reaction seriously. It's possible that one day I'll consider a coda of sorts. (I assume you mean a plot sequel. I would very much like to make spiritual successor once I've reflected enough on the mechanic to substantially improve it.)
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DeleteGoing to just capitalize "Someone" for clarity.
Delete>"I agree, but please point out anything remotely (and I mean remotely) insulting in my reply to being called out by name."
I was referring to the final sentence "Some of my points are obviously going to be wrong, and I agree all of them are, when you treat TLS as another fap and forget game."
While it's technically possible that you were just making an abstract statement at the end, the clear implication is that Someone is treating TLS as a "fap and forget game." Regardless of if that is true, in context it functions as an insult. It is derogatory toward his intelligence and suggests that his playing of the game is shallower than yours.
Normally I would not state that so baldly, but I hope that it explains my reading of your comment since you requested it. If I have missed another reading that is not insulting, I apologize for overreacting, but I don't think my reading is unreasonable.
I respect that you might view Someone using your name as especially personal; that's a valid way of looking at it. I viewed their statement as a commentary on the opinions expressed in this thread. Since you have been regularly making comments on the opinions of others, I didn't consider it to be particularly out of line.
I don't expect you to agree and accept that referring to someone by name may be more personal than it is in my mind, but that was my thought process.
>"I find it mildly saddening that in contrast you take no issue with "someone's" comment, which just happens to praise you and, as a side note, directly tries to tell you what to do, while arguing against the very same thing (that part is rather amusing)."
My response to Someone indicated how I respond to people who request specific things about the game: I thank them for their opinion. My intent in the second paragraph was to push back and say that I welcome all opinions, including those he disagreed with.
That is still the standard I try to follow, though I freely admit that I may not live up to it. In my eyes, this was a difference between being dismissive of someone's opinion and insulting them personally.
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DeleteThumos, your initial sentence wasn't implying a stance where one considers TLS a porn game, it was implying a stance where one considers TLS a "fap and forget" game. The second is a more disrespectful stance than the first since it would consider TLS as not even worth of committing to memory. Estabilishing after-the-fact that you consider those two terms equivalent doesn't nullify how your sentence was originally perceived, so you'd have to at least agree that you expressed yourself poorly.
DeleteImplying the second stance could also discredit Someone's opinion since one isn't qualified to discuss what they don't remember.
Also you didn't want to discredit Someone's opinion to defend the game, you wanted to discredit Someone's opinion to defend your own opinions of the game. Your apparent thought process wasn't "there's something wrong with treating TLS as a porn game", it seemed more among the lines of "there's something wrong with disagreeing with me" and then you explained the divergence by implying Someone was speaking from a position that wasn't taking the game as seriously as you do. You can argue that's not directly insulting, but it is condescending.
I am not going to defend Someone's original comment since they tried to discredit some of your expressed opinions on the game as being just moralism, but your response wasn't much better.
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DeleteOr you know what, screw this. I went for a walk and it cleared my head. Seeing how hell-bent you are on proving me nasty I can't help but think that I come off as full of myself, the more so the more tempting it is to prove me wrong. But guess what, I'm the holiest of holes and your tiny arguments can't even touch me; even less so reach my depths.
DeleteNow to be serious: this comment chain has nothing to do with TLS, and while clarification was needed and nice, our "polite exchange of opinions in atmosphere of understanding" gets increasingly stupid. Maybe you were right on general level and my answer to "someone" was insulting. I admit that.
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Sierra, can I remove my comments in this chain? They are idiotic and bring nothing to TLS blog. But not this one. This one I like.
I'm not sure what the limits are on deleting posts, but I don't personally have any specific rules about it. I removed your most recent post for you, not sure if you wanted them all gone.
Delete*gasp!* tyna is not going into the harem?
Delete@Fenyx, Simon's dick is supposed to solve international incidents, not cause them.
DeleteYet that would solve so many of Ardoheim's problems. We all know that no one else could stick some stability into Tyna's region like Simon could ;) those other contenders don't possess the power pole dick.
DeleteBesides if Simon could have gotten Queen Eytria and Dheria then there is no way he would have forgotten either Darghelon or Gheldaron though if the Mother had let them form a military alliance then that could have also worked... Wait, just because Simon acted in good faith didn't he put troops into elven territory implying their military was insufficient along with completely ignoring their sovereignty thus maybe sparking a international incident? No official ever stated that assistance was requested nor desired, and have made various remarks that Simon was unwelcome to meddle in their affairs. Not sure if either Lynine or Orilise had the authority to make that call without consulting with their respected Queens... Though I guess we will hear from the Queens sooner or later, they probably will want to launch a counter attack but lack the resources to do that properly.
Sorry for asking this but does the update comes out this week.You said that there could be a big problem and that could take more time for the update to come out is that problem with the game?
ReplyDeleteNo need to answer the problem if it is a secret or something you don't want to talk about it.
Can't wait to play the new update :)
Sorry, I don't think I'll be able to get it done before this weekend, though I'll try. The issue is not related to TLS, it just might require me to spend time not working on TLS.
DeleteRegarding the date, there had been news (the patreon release will be next Friday).
DeleteWell, this game just ate up like a month of my free time. Yet, I'm just so glad I found this. Totally random chance I saw a note somewhere I can't remember, and actually looked into it. Also, that I didn't quit during the Prologue. I hated the Chosen character, and was about to quit. If it had been five minutes longer, I've had been gone and missed an absolutely amazing game...Even if my inability to cheat due to my lacking computer skills has irritated me so much since I'm a real min/max gamer.
ReplyDeleteNow some feedback you'll hopefully find more useful. Honestly, in a way Orcent and the succubi harem members are arguably one of my favorite aspects of the game even if Nalili might be one of my least favorite characters by this point. Both Qum and Yarra are delightful, in spite of or possibly even moreso due to their slutty aspects. The Gathering is still one of my favorite arcs. The fact that you've given succubi as a whole some more depth that still ties into their sexual nature is great. The armorer with the armor kink, their not understanding human views on slavery, the religion of the Lustlord, etc. You've kept their sexuality core to their society, but still didn't make them so one dimensional in that sexuality. Seeing them integrate in Yhilin was great, and I'm rooting for the Stineford Succubi. Developing the orcs has also been great, just seeing their linguistic skills develop from first seeing Orcent has been incredibly rewarding. While Orcent is not quite to my tastes, his break with Lucy and relationship with Kara unexpectedly hit me. It really showed that his views on romantic compatibility have developed from 'willing female' to 'someone I can actual discuss my thoughts and views with.'
Yeah, I worried about the prologue while creating it. I needed it to be long enough to set up the twist, but was concerned it might turn away the very people who would appreciate the game. Glad you made it through and had fun with the game!
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ReplyDeleteI do hope to see a bit more development with Ginasta though. While I still love her, I admit I think she could be better utilized. While I like how she continues to oppose Simon, I feel her dialogue and views aren't as developed as they could be. She basically is just sticking to saying that Simon's way of reasoning where he can't do anything but accrue power further makes him the greatest threat, even if he intends to do good with it, and isn't quite adapting to the arguments everyone in Simon's harem is putting forth. Honestly I could see Ginasta being a long term rival for Simon and his group. I'd love to see her gathering a group of her own to oppose him. Both personally, as she already admitted after her Boss Battle that she's specialized for facing single opponents and not groups, but also professionally, gathering allies that could help her overthrow tyrants since her own efforts while crucial (injuring the Incubus Emperor) have been stymied by her inability to directly defeat them and her lack of support (as shown by the Chosen during her attempts to work with the Church of Ivala). If she could both develop her beliefs to the point she can debate with Simon's group as an equal and present a practical alternative to Simon's methods by showing a group using her methods could succeed in defeating Incubus Kings, it would really connect with me. With Simon's group taking on certain anti-hero characteristics, having a more straightforward hero counterpart would be great. All we've had so far of effective 'traditional' hero types is mainly examples meant to mock some cliches, the Chosen and maybe Antarion. Ginasta is the best 'straight' option, and while I very much doubt my half bakes ideas are what you're planning I do hope she gets properly developed (which is easiest accomplished in my view by having her remain an enemy for a while and develop as totally independent of Simon, even if that isn't the only option).
ReplyDeleteI like Simon, primarily because he is an older character and experienced and broken down enough that he doesn't have some of the youthful optimism so many MC's have. Reminds me of Geralt from Witcher. Although I personally would like if we see him develop some aspects beyond the 'experienced veteran' trope. I get that he's a very focused individual who focuses on business over play, but maybe a few hobbies? Something unrelated to him as a soldier or an Incubus King. What would he have been if not a soldier? An architect, scholar, social worker? If he retired to that small estate Janine once mentioned, where would he want it to be? Just a few things to define him as an individual unrelated to the plot would be welcome.
Otherwise...Aka and Robin are my favorite gameplay fighters, Varia and Qum my favorite love interests, I'm dying waiting for Sarai (that mouth of hers really gets me, even if cussing/dirty talk isn't usually my thing), I'm suspicious the Lord of Blood will play a role despite being a bit unimpressive at the Gathering, and am obviously looking forward to the next update. Might need a few weeks to restart my social life now that TLS isn't distracting me. Good luck, and really thank you for making this game.
Ginasta is a major character who has a large role to play in the remainder of the game! In fact, you may be interested in the brief scene you'll get of her in the upcoming version. I cannot say if you will be satisfied by my plans for her, but Ginasta is one of my favorites. ^-^
DeleteThanks for your thoughts, and glad you've enjoyed the game!
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DeleteI also want to add to the point regarding the character of Simon. During the early stages of the game he was definitely the center of the attention with his "uniqueness" compared to other rpg protagonists. Right now however I feel his dry, stoic, "grey" personality is at risk of being overshadowed by the huge quantity of colourful characters that have been added to the game in the last chapters. Something to see less of the soldier or incubus king Simon and more of the human Simon would be nice. Maybe a flashback sequence? that would be cool. You can even make the choices in the flashback have consequences in the present XD.
DeleteOn what date will the new update come out will it be this week?
ReplyDeleteIf Ginasta is your favorite that means that her story will be good because right now most people hate or don't even love her because of what she is doing with little of a understanding for others and her way of thinking for other stuff and mostly Simon and F lord.They really want to see her broken in prison by F lord.
Can't wait to see what will happened. Will that scene you are talking about is in this update can will come?
Yes, it's coming out soon. I posted an early preview with screenshots on a number of forums, for example:
Deletehttps://ulmf.org/threads/the-last-sovereign-updated-7-27.6640/page-48
Ginasta is one of my favorites; I don't have any unqualified favorite. Anyway, the reaction to her is divided. I see feedback from people who hate her, and that may predominate on some forums, but I hear equally much from people who love her. All I can say is that I will write what I believe to be an interesting story to the best of my ability.
If you mean the scene I reference in the comment just above, it's just a brief look at what Ginasta is doing - but yes, it's in the coming update.
Wow nice the last picture said everything .So we were right about choosing one of them.But we still don't know if it is about taking one of them with us and the other leaving to control or maybe it will be something else.
DeleteCan we explore before we go?
Explore Stenai? You have freedom to explore the capital and a few other locations before you make a choice. If you mean explore Arclent, best to do that in the previous version's content before going to the waiting room.
Delete...Can we have a sex scene with the Zirantian bird lady (Biyue)? Call me a furry but i do like my monster girls in my sexy videogames.
ReplyDeleteI like monster characters too, enough that I'd like to make a project focusing on them rather than adding them into the side of TLS. Having said that, you'll see more of Biyue.
DeleteI gotta say, this game is just (https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/698/d96.jpg).
ReplyDeleteEspecially at that mother-daughter potion store in Gasm Falls. I be like (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/044/032/heart-attack.jpg?1318992465), when I think about not "investing" in them.
(Links are memes to express myself more than words can do, not phishing links meant to harm you)
Thanks, I'm glad the game can have an emotional impact on you!
DeleteMe 20 years old playing the game
DeleteFriend calls going to see what he wants
Leaving game open adult scene or adult text open
Talking to friend
Mother goes to pc to do her work
Sees game understand English starts to read
Me finish talking to friend goes back to room to finish the game
OH SHIT
Mother son awkward moment
Mother are you not old to play games like this
Me open door
No I am a man I will tell her
I... do it for the story
Mother yeah...
Me leaves
I think I will take some time and finish your new updates later.
Today it the last hope to have a public realese in august hope we will have a relesse today
ReplyDeleteIt's out! Post coming soon.
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